Jason's post was, to me, right on; and Thorn's post made an excellent point about the commercialism of the frantic holiday. I am a Quaker Witch; our family celebrates Christmas in the family tradition -- highly eclectic and welcoming. For the Christians among us, and for the formerly-Christian folks, the tradition is rich in sacred associations, lessons, and connections with That Which We Hold Most Sacred. For the others, the family tradition itself is sacred ritual of bonding and connection from which no one is excluded or unwelcome. The tradition does, therefore, what good ritual should always do -- it realigns us to our highest ideals and purposes, including the fact that we are all members of the human family. It reminds us that a newborn child is a child of promise -- any newborn. It reminds us that shared joy is a delight worth seeking.

I am bothered that Pagans or Christians feel called to make proprietary claims on this human celebration. Doing so appears to me to be more akin to hate than love. I am not saying it IS hate, but I call on all of us to consider what we are saying when we try to stamp brand names on something wonderful to keep the riff-raff out.

... and those five men being aced out is what the FLDS in trouble: what to do with the leftover guys

It's not appropriate to include a child or teenager in rituals that may contain sexual symbolism.

Sexual symbolism is everywhere, not just in our rites. I worry that we may be trying to word this statement so strictly that we would prevent ourselves from educating our young in the blessings of being sexual creatures, developing an awareness of sexual symbolism so that they will recognize it when it's being used in the wider world to entice them to buy things or agree to carefully nuanced pitches.

Advertising uses our sexuality to sell to us -- to me, this profanes the Mystery. Young people who are alert and have been taught about the Mystery may -- may, I hope -- be inoculated against this profanity.

After all, what is a steeple but a grand phallic symbol?

Good point. Empowerment does imply bringing information resources to bear. But some empowerment can happen before those resources are in hand. Compassionate attentive listening to a victim carries a great deal of empowerment with it -- if only helping reframe the statement and hearing it without prelimiary judgmen.

I think we are trying for gender-neutral wording in the statement, but individual comments often carry the emotion behind them and that shows in gender-specific terminology.

Nor would we. If you were a willing adult, then it was not nonconsensual and hence not within what we are calling sexual abuse.

I have finally done what I should have a week ago and looked up the issue with the Frosts online. I had previously had it explained to me and have still not read (or purchased) the book in question.

What I can offer is this: found through http://wildhunt.org/blog/2007/08/frosts-and-what-... (by tags on Gavin and Yvonne Frost), 2 items:

almost retraction

Jason's blog of August 11, 2007 shows that they have, at least, backed down from the most objectionable aspect mentioned about their book, The Witch's Bible, written in 1972:

"Though, despite their claims of being impervious to criticism, they did add a disclaimer to the chapter in the most recent (1999) edition.

“No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen.”

That disclaimer is at http://www.freewebs.com/controversialstudy/WB/For...

advice we should consider in this effort

"Know what the Federal and State laws dictate for each situation, and if you feel a piece of writing or a person(s) have violated them, do not hesitate to report it to the appropriate authorities that are going to do something, not to friends or associates who have no power over the situation. To know what various State laws are concerning child welfare, you can search from this governmental web site. You can read a run-down of all applicable Federal laws as well. More specifically, Federal Public Law No: 108-21 stipulates that there is no statute of limitations for the sexual or physical abuse of a child. So if there is indeed proof of abuse, no matter how long ago, it should still be reported.

""If the person(s) or literature doesn’t break any applicable laws (or if you have no proof that they have done so), but you feel their writings/person(s) are dangerous to the community, voice your concerns but avoid defamation. In the case of public figures any form of “actual malice” should be avoided. You can read more about libel law, here. An article discussing the emerging field of online libel can be found, here."

"When promoting your concerns to the community, avoid demonizing those unconvinced by your claims, those reserving judgment, and those who criticize your methods. The logical fallacy of “guilt by association” should be avoided (I believe Person A. supports pedophilia, Person B. criticized my methods, therefore Person B. supports pedophilia). "

---
Go to Jason's blog of 2007 for the links embedded in the last 3 paragraphs.

So what we are developing here is highest-level policy for the broadest community of those Pagans and others who self-identify with our opening paragraph. Implementation, fine-grained standards, and tradition-specific nuances can be spelled out at the lower levels -- or, as is more likely the case, worked out case-by-case taking into account all the factors in play at that time.

Elf is right -- this is not the place to get so specific we give a predator something with which to construct a loophole. Or a vindictive raging-hormones teenager to use as a weapon. Legalities we leave to the legal system -- we are talking ethics and morals here. We have no commonly-accepted authoritative text here -- we are creating one for the baseline. It has to convey the spirit of our intent and the outside scope of the letter of our law.

"Our" refers to the community of people who sign and people who adopt it within their own ethical systems and groups who incorporate it into their tradition or path, with or without adjustment.

The question for each of us is: in this area of behavior, come up with a statement of "I will..." and I will not ..." for yourself. You may not ever show it to anyone, but it will contain information the rest of the community would like to know and trust about you. -- which will be interpreted in light of how you keep your commitments in other areas. Can we trust you with our eyes closed? With our children? When we're not at our best and vulnerable? When we're asleep in our tents or cabins at festival? When we are in sacred ritual together? When something unforeseen goes wrong and we suddenly have to say NO or safeword? When we're hurt and need help you can give?

Vivienne Colquhoun responded to my posting of the links for this venture to the DCPagan Yahoo group; her response is posted here with her permission:

RedBird,

Thank you for posting this information, I took some time to review both versions of the statement, and to look over many of the comments. It's obvious that many people put an intense effort into the statement. I found myself in agreement with it on all points and I look forward to seeing the final product. It promises to be a statement that most Pagans can endorse, it will feel good to be in alliance with so many.

Blessings,

Vivienne

Comment removed with permission of the poster.