gdp's Comments

The Wild Hunt : Counter-Point: Christians Should Take Back Christmas

Thu, 23 Dec 2010 17:06:31 +0000

Jason's post was, to me, right on; and Thorn's post made an excellent point about the commercialism of the frantic holiday. I am a Quaker Witch; our family celebrates Christmas in the family tradition -- highly eclectic and welcoming. For the Christians among us, and for the formerly-Christian folks, the tradition is rich in sacred associations, lessons, and connections with That Which We Hold Most Sacred. For the others, the family tradition itself is sacred ritual of bonding and connection from which no one is excluded or unwelcome. The tradition does, therefore, what good ritual should always do -- it realigns us to our highest ideals and purposes, including the fact that we are all members of the human family. It reminds us that a newborn child is a child of promise -- any newborn. It reminds us that shared joy is a delight worth seeking. I am bothered that Pagans or Christians feel called to make proprietary claims on this human celebration. Doing so appears to me to be more akin to hate than love. I am not saying it IS hate, but I call on all of us to consider what we are saying when we try to stamp brand names on something wonderful to keep the riff-raff out.

The Wild Hunt : Pagans and Prop. 8

Sat, 7 Aug 2010 05:00:58 +0000

... and those five men being aced out is what the FLDS in trouble: what to do with the leftover guys

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Sat, 29 May 2010 02:48:42 +0000

It's not appropriate to include a child or teenager in rituals that may contain sexual symbolism. Sexual symbolism is everywhere, not just in our rites. I worry that we may be trying to word this statement so strictly that we would prevent ourselves from educating our young in the blessings of being sexual creatures, developing an awareness of sexual symbolism so that they will recognize it when it's being used in the wider world to entice them to buy things or agree to carefully nuanced pitches. Advertising uses our sexuality to sell to us -- to me, this profanes the Mystery. Young people who are alert and have been taught about the Mystery may -- may, I hope -- be inoculated against this profanity. After all, what is a steeple but a grand phallic symbol?

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Fri, 28 May 2010 21:02:20 +0000

Good point. Empowerment does imply bringing information resources to bear. But some empowerment can happen before those resources are in hand. Compassionate attentive listening to a victim carries a great deal of empowerment with it -- if only helping reframe the statement and hearing it without prelimiary judgmen.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Fri, 28 May 2010 20:54:26 +0000

I think we are trying for gender-neutral wording in the statement, but individual comments often carry the emotion behind them and that shows in gender-specific terminology.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Fri, 28 May 2010 20:49:28 +0000

Nor would we. If you were a willing adult, then it was not nonconsensual and hence not within what we are calling sexual abuse.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Fri, 28 May 2010 01:36:47 +0000

I have finally done what I should have a week ago and looked up the issue with the Frosts online. I had previously had it explained to me and have still not read (or purchased) the book in question. What I can offer is this: found through http://wildhunt.org/blog/2007/08/frosts-and-what-... (by tags on Gavin and Yvonne Frost), 2 items: almost retraction Jason's blog of August 11, 2007 shows that they have, at least, backed down from the most objectionable aspect mentioned about their book, The Witch's Bible, written in 1972: "Though, despite their claims of being impervious to criticism, they did add a disclaimer to the chapter in the most recent (1999) edition. “No formal initiation into a group that practices the great rite should be done before the candidate attains the age of eighteen.” That disclaimer is at http://www.freewebs.com/controversialstudy/WB/For... advice we should consider in this effort "Know what the Federal and State laws dictate for each situation, and if you feel a piece of writing or a person(s) have violated them, do not hesitate to report it to the appropriate authorities that are going to do something, not to friends or associates who have no power over the situation. To know what various State laws are concerning child welfare, you can search from this governmental web site. You can read a run-down of all applicable Federal laws as well. More specifically, Federal Public Law No: 108-21 stipulates that there is no statute of limitations for the sexual or physical abuse of a child. So if there is indeed proof of abuse, no matter how long ago, it should still be reported. ""If the person(s) or literature doesn’t break any applicable laws (or if you have no proof that they have done so), but you feel their writings/person(s) are dangerous to the community, voice your concerns but avoid defamation. In the case of public figures any form of “actual malice” should be avoided. You can read more about libel law, here. An article discussing the emerging field of online libel can be found, here." "When promoting your concerns to the community, avoid demonizing those unconvinced by your claims, those reserving judgment, and those who criticize your methods. The logical fallacy of “guilt by association” should be avoided (I believe Person A. supports pedophilia, Person B. criticized my methods, therefore Person B. supports pedophilia). " --- Go to Jason's blog of 2007 for the links embedded in the last 3 paragraphs.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Thu, 27 May 2010 15:53:06 +0000

So what we are developing here is highest-level policy for the broadest community of those Pagans and others who self-identify with our opening paragraph. Implementation, fine-grained standards, and tradition-specific nuances can be spelled out at the lower levels -- or, as is more likely the case, worked out case-by-case taking into account all the factors in play at that time. Elf is right -- this is not the place to get so specific we give a predator something with which to construct a loophole. Or a vindictive raging-hormones teenager to use as a weapon. Legalities we leave to the legal system -- we are talking ethics and morals here. We have no commonly-accepted authoritative text here -- we are creating one for the baseline. It has to convey the spirit of our intent and the outside scope of the letter of our law. "Our" refers to the community of people who sign and people who adopt it within their own ethical systems and groups who incorporate it into their tradition or path, with or without adjustment. The question for each of us is: in this area of behavior, come up with a statement of "I will..." and I will not ..." for yourself. You may not ever show it to anyone, but it will contain information the rest of the community would like to know and trust about you. -- which will be interpreted in light of how you keep your commitments in other areas. Can we trust you with our eyes closed? With our children? When we're not at our best and vulnerable? When we're asleep in our tents or cabins at festival? When we are in sacred ritual together? When something unforeseen goes wrong and we suddenly have to say NO or safeword? When we're hurt and need help you can give?

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Wed, 26 May 2010 04:12:04 +0000

Vivienne Colquhoun responded to my posting of the links for this venture to the DCPagan Yahoo group; her response is posted here with her permission: RedBird, Thank you for posting this information, I took some time to review both versions of the statement, and to look over many of the comments. It's obvious that many people put an intense effort into the statement. I found myself in agreement with it on all points and I look forward to seeing the final product. It promises to be a statement that most Pagans can endorse, it will feel good to be in alliance with so many. Blessings, Vivienne

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 16:48:00 +0000

Comment removed with permission of the poster.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 16:33:52 +0000

We are discussing ethics and morals here, and the standards that apply to those are matters of virtue and of fitness to be included in a particular community. Courts act on the basis of law -- written and/or common -- and the court's actions don't really get to what guides your daily life, your relationships with others and the Divine. What matters to the court is what you did and whether or not that conforms to the law. In the US, the law is based on the Constitution, and the courts must weigh both the actions and the law in its light. In the Pagan community, we are trying to draw a line in the sand in one particular area of ethics and morals that will help us maintain the community as fair, safe, and supporting for its members.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 13:05:20 +0000

Reposted here with permission: "There is an aspect missing from this. First of all there is no indication that we in the Pagan community will be in complyance with the laws of the countries we live in. That takes care of a lot of abuse in that most of the mentioned abuses are in fact criminal acts. And the issue of non-consensual. "As a cop I spent a lot of years investigating sexual abuse and one of the issues was that of consent. With our kids now days becoming more sexually active earlier, it is important to address this as plenty of underaged kids are most willing partners in the cases of statuatory rape which is an of-age criminal act, not an emotional or manipulated act. "Again, each state has a legal statute on this issue wherein the age of consent for sexual conduct varies widely from 14 to 18. "Again, it is an ethical responsibility to comply with the law. So consensual in the emotional rhelm could be contrary to that in the legal rhelm which in fact may be non-consentual by virtue of age. "I think what you are doing with this is outstanding by the way. I do feel that our community compared to that of other religious bodies does a much better job of policing sexual predators than most of the high profile mainstream religions. "Bright Blessings, Rev. Marci Drewry" The permission: RedBird: "Marci, may I repost your reply on the Wild Hunt blog,with or without attribution as you wish, so that it will be taken into consideration in the comment period? I am active on that blog most days and was part of the drafting group.Blessed Be.RedBird" Marci: "Sure, if you think it is relevant and I have no problem standing up and being counted and ID'd as a Pagan, Wiccan or a Witch. Bright Blessings, Marci"

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 05:14:24 +0000

Yes! I think we have this consciousness growing and spreading, the discussion continuing, with hope and mindfulness in our future. In the end, the values we document here must become individual and internal to clean up the messes and expand the health of our community.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 05:03:02 +0000

The posts I made on the forum were in response to private messages and such from others on the forum and other factors. I wonder if it might be better to reply on forum only in response to messages posted on forum, rather than making deprecating public responses to private messages and such from others on the forum and other factors? Expecting email or PM me and discuss like adults from someone you insult publicly may continue to lead you to disappointment.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 04:56:48 +0000

On most forums, when acting as mod staff you say so, so people know the difference between you expressing your opinion and being a moderator. This was explained to Redbird. -- -- well after those posts were made. I had never heard of any such practice; thank you for informing me so I will not make that mistake again.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Tue, 25 May 2010 04:53:10 +0000

She has never insulted anyone by name At the risk of destroying the very recent peace between us, Brendan, I'm afraid I must differ with you on this matter of fact. As I pointed out to you in what was intended as private correspondence to the site owner, she did insult me rather soundly by name publicly in that forum. Those comments are still available for anyone reviewing the process -- as we have certainly invited them to do -- to read and remember. Here, she has been somewhat more temperate. But saying ** never ** makes your statement very strong -- and very falsifiable. The text is important, yes, but the process -- which will not end quickly, no matter how good the next Declaration is -- is extremely important as well for the education and commitment of the community. We will be living with both the product (Declaration) and process (networking, discussion, criticism, exploration, objection, and all) for quite some time -- and that is all to the good. This process is vital to a living understanding and internalization of the deepest tenets of the ethics underlying our behavior with others -- including respect, truth, hospitality, honesty, integrity, and all the virtues that must guide our lives from minute to minute without requiring us to stop, think, and look something up in an authoritative text. One thing that unites Pagans, I think, is our discomfort with any one authoritative text. Or authoritative text in the collective sense. That's why this discussion of behavior, motives, and personal values expressed in public discourse goes on and on. Thanks Be.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Mon, 24 May 2010 16:14:45 +0000

What the statement "really means" is irrelevant--what matters is what people understand when they read it. Yes. Thank you.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Mon, 24 May 2010 16:10:48 +0000

I hear you, Cat. And sit corrected (I'd say stand, but the dog is in my lap) Brendan, I apologize. I should have kept any comments like that to personal correspondence.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Mon, 24 May 2010 16:01:23 +0000

what (if any?) Pagan groups are involved in this effort? The Fellowship of the Sacred Grove and its Bakhti -Wiccan tradition: I can speak for both; Ehe Wilddragon can speak for Grove and tradition; all 3rd degrees have been informed and invited to comment. The tradition has been around for over 20 years, teaching in several states along the East Coast. Cherry Hill Seminary's first ever Pagan Master's program, first Cohort consisting of all candidates matriculated from start through Fall 2010, is addressing this matter by assignment in June. Sacred Well Congregation, of which I am a member, has been informed via postings by someone else, I believe, on its email lists. I will pursue SWC involvement going forward. Washington-Baltimore Pagan Clergy Association, of which I am a member, has been informed and encouraged to comment. QuakerPagan Google group, of which I am a member, has been informed and encouraged to comment. DCPagan, our local Google group, has been informed and encouraged. Ehe Wilddragon is its moderator. Networking the wild wonderful Web of Life -- that's where it all happens.

The Wild Hunt : An Ethics Statement: Public Comment Period

Mon, 24 May 2010 15:47:32 +0000

It appeared to me, at least for a while, that you were making that claim. Best I can recall without going through the gazillions of posts for the umteenth time, the bookselling denial came before Elf showed up in this discussion. It bothered me (I think in the accusation of accusing you of same) because it was a denial of something that had not been said -- which kind of suggests that someone was afraid you would be accused of it and got confused and convinced you already had been. Your staunch defenders have poured fuel on the fire and done you no good service here.