"Perspicacious." I am digging your use of our lovely language. It is no accident that English has more words than any other language on earth.

I've posted on here before that on a larger scale this is not a 9/12 fight to fight. But this is a discussion board, so I am not objecting to the topic coming up.

Trevr84 is technically accurate in the most generic and broadest sense - by definition - since one would assume that homosexuality would not be the norm for an organism. And in the broadest sense a deviation from the norm may be called a disease. Although, even that logic does not rule out bisexuality, as being perhaps perfectly natural and certainly not necessarily a disease. So, this line of thought cuts both ways.

I do think we have to be careful about one set of comments in this thread, though. The idea that someone has to hide their behavior or opinions simply because it may offend others is a dangerous line to draw. If the crime is offense alone, then I would argue and defend their right to be free to offend. Protecting the norm is not as sacred to Americans as protecting our right to object, even if that makes them objectionable in our eyes. Else freedom would be easy and not a virtue if we all behaved and thought alike.

MeJane, could you repost your current thinking on the 17th? Both ratification issues and the core argument behind how an amendment could be unconstitutional. And the way in which the 17th is currently a problem and how reverting back to State appointment of U.S. Senators would be superior. Basically, the whole ball of wax. I have seen this topic referred to several times, but I do not understand it yet nor do I know much about it. I looked for a summary but did not find one in past posts, apologies if I just missed it.

triper57 that is actually a very interesting point and argument. Has anyone here visited any of the major southern China industrial cities - Shenzen, Gaungzhou, or even Chongqing a little farther north - the air is horrid. India also suffers from some of this uncontrolled (or insufficiently controlled) industrial pollution. Living in dozens of those cities is like being a very heavy smoker daily.

Actually penalizing a country's exports because of their own internal pollution would be a powerful way to really deal with this issue on a global scale. I suspect though, that this kind of unilateral "punishment" would not be politically feasible. It would most likely result in the same lock-down of trade that outright protectionism would cause, and that kind of process leads to global depressions. Sigh. And civilian deaths even by the millions due to pollution would also probably not be sufficient to cause China to alter course. They have bigger concerns. Double sigh.

I totally respect your right to say what you want on this board, and it is a discussion board(!) after all, but I do not think - for example - that signs saying "homosexuality is a sin" should play a part in 9/12 gatherings or Tea Parties. That is the wrong fight to fight. Yes, people will respond to me that it is a matter of Biblical principle, morals, ethics, etc. Fine, I will reply, but it is not in the 9 Principles and 12 values. Not explicitly. It could have been, it is not. Principle 2 is probably the closest - "I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life" - but even that does make any statement about religious dogma, dictum, sect or beliefs. While Principle 8 seems to support the point that I am making here that I welcome your opinion but I also hope to set this issue aside - "It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion." We want to have as much common ground as possible.

As someone who has also been indicted for arrogance - yes me - and who has even had a little "battle of the words" and egos with Jean_Chauvin I will admit that he is sincere in what he was doing here, unlike a troll.

I still have issues with some of his posts, but it is a free country. I don't think I ever actually gave him a thumbs down - I do not like that system particularly anyway, words should be sufficient, this is not an election - and I certainly would not thumb him down in the future.

Quote: " Many childhood disorders such as autism, ADD/ADHD, SIDS and others have been linked to vaccines."

Possibly, the numbers are not very strong either way yet and the probability of adverse reactions to a vaccine is miniscule. But I think the "pro-polio," although incendiary, quote above is a strong argument. If no one took the bank of modern vaccines that are given out today then we would - yes would - have the return of many nasty and deadly diseases. Sure, as it stands now, with the vast majority of folks in America being vaccinated some people can safely opt-out and count on the rest to do the prevention for them. To turn that quote above around I would simply say, "Many childhood illnesses have been linked to childhood illnesses."

I do support your right to refuse vaccines, whether I think that is smart or not, so perhaps we are in agreement!

whodey, you posted this nine weeks ago:

"Bush and the government are the terroists, they backed 911 the terroists were trained at US bases. How did tower 7 collapse when it wasnt hit and had very little fire from debris? Bush knew what was happening and let it happen!!!! Why do you think the patriot act was passed at 3 in the morning and congressman werent allowed to read it?"

Right?

I think you are being too harsh and I know the opinion that I am about to share is not popular, but not everyone is able to have what they need to sustain life and fight illness now in America either. I assume that you have had a family member with serious health issues, as I have had, and that you must be aware of the endless paperwork and calls and fights with the insurance bureaucrats to get clearance just for the simplest d*mn tests that are needed to diagnose a real problem. It is pretty frustrating and it does not always turn out with a happy ending. I think there are sometimes five people that you need to get to sign off on one procedure and that is with a private company! They sure do not like to spend their money (i.e. their profit margin) when they can avoid it.

I am also surrounded by Brits and Canadians for part of the year. So, I have spoken with them and experienced their health services first hand. They do not complain as much as the Americans I know about red tape. The guidelines there are much clearer and are explained up-front. And the vast majority would not dream of ending their national health systems - bar none.

I do not think that we should try and create an NHS system, but as I said, from personal experience, I do not believe the horror stories some people would like to tell about *all* the other G8 nations (not just the United Kingdom and Canada but all the other advanced industrial nations have national health care systems, we alone do not). Nor do I think such one sided talk helps this camp. But I know that I am relatively alone on that.

And if you want to buy a PC or a Mac or a cell phone or, heck, any electronic device of any type you will not be able to simply buy American. Walmart is a prime example of what Trev84 is talking about, and it is the most popular American retail outlet in the history of our nation (even beating out Sears and Woolworth's) and what was the percentage? sixty plus, maybe, percent of the items on their shelves are made in China.