en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/496684 Comments by Ciceroni http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25941010 "Perspicacious." I am digging your use of our lovely language. It is no accident that English has more words than any other language on earth. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:35:42 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25941010 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25939489 I've posted on here before that on a larger scale this is not a 9/12 fight to fight. But this is a discussion board, so I am not objecting to the topic coming up. Trevr84 is technically accurate in the most generic and broadest sense - by definition - since one would assume that homosexuality would not be the norm for an organism. And in the broadest sense a deviation from the norm may be called a disease. Although, even that logic does not rule out bisexuality, as being perhaps perfectly natural and certainly not necessarily a disease. So, this line of thought cuts both ways. I do think we have to be careful about one set of comments in this thread, though. The idea that someone has to hide their behavior or opinions simply because it may offend others is a dangerous line to draw. If the crime is offense alone, then I would argue and defend their right to be free to offend. Protecting the norm is not as sacred to Americans as protecting our right to object, even if that makes them objectionable in our eyes. Else freedom would be easy and not a virtue if we all behaved and thought alike. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:12:27 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25939489 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25937163 MeJane, could you repost your current thinking on the 17th? Both ratification issues and the core argument behind how an amendment could be unconstitutional. And the way in which the 17th is currently a problem and how reverting back to State appointment of U.S. Senators would be superior. Basically, the whole ball of wax. I have seen this topic referred to several times, but I do not understand it yet nor do I know much about it. I looked for a summary but did not find one in past posts, apologies if I just missed it. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:46:25 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25937163 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25934874 triper57 that is actually a very interesting point and argument. Has anyone here visited any of the major southern China industrial cities - Shenzen, Gaungzhou, or even Chongqing a little farther north - the air is horrid. India also suffers from some of this uncontrolled (or insufficiently controlled) industrial pollution. Living in dozens of those cities is like being a very heavy smoker daily. Actually penalizing a country's exports because of their own internal pollution would be a powerful way to really deal with this issue on a global scale. I suspect though, that this kind of unilateral "punishment" would not be politically feasible. It would most likely result in the same lock-down of trade that outright protectionism would cause, and that kind of process leads to global depressions. Sigh. And civilian deaths even by the millions due to pollution would also probably not be sufficient to cause China to alter course. They have bigger concerns. Double sigh. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:12:40 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25934874 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25930677 I totally respect your right to say what you want on this board, and it is a discussion board(!) after all, but I do not think - for example - that signs saying "homosexuality is a sin" should play a part in 9/12 gatherings or Tea Parties. That is the wrong fight to fight. Yes, people will respond to me that it is a matter of Biblical principle, morals, ethics, etc. Fine, I will reply, but it is not in the 9 Principles and 12 values. Not explicitly. It could have been, it is not. Principle 2 is probably the closest - "I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life" - but even that does make any statement about religious dogma, dictum, sect or beliefs. While Principle 8 seems to support the point that I am making here that I welcome your opinion but I also hope to set this issue aside - "It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion." We want to have as much common ground as possible. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:56:44 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25930677 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25922253 As someone who has also been indicted for arrogance - yes me - and who has even had a little "battle of the words" and egos with Jean_Chauvin I will admit that he is sincere in what he was doing here, unlike a troll. I still have issues with some of his posts, but it is a free country. I don't think I ever actually gave him a thumbs down - I do not like that system particularly anyway, words should be sufficient, this is not an election - and I certainly would not thumb him down in the future. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:15:52 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25922253 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25921631 Quote: " Many childhood disorders such as autism, ADD/ADHD, SIDS and others have been linked to vaccines." Possibly, the numbers are not very strong either way yet and the probability of adverse reactions to a vaccine is miniscule. But I think the "pro-polio," although incendiary, quote above is a strong argument. If no one took the bank of modern vaccines that are given out today then we would - yes would - have the return of many nasty and deadly diseases. Sure, as it stands now, with the vast majority of folks in America being vaccinated some people can safely opt-out and count on the rest to do the prevention for them. To turn that quote above around I would simply say, "Many childhood illnesses have been linked to childhood illnesses." I do support your right to refuse vaccines, whether I think that is smart or not, so perhaps we are in agreement! Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:02:07 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25921631 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25892251 whodey, you posted this nine weeks ago: "Bush and the government are the terroists, they backed 911 the terroists were trained at US bases. How did tower 7 collapse when it wasnt hit and had very little fire from debris? Bush knew what was happening and let it happen!!!! Why do you think the patriot act was passed at 3 in the morning and congressman werent allowed to read it?" Right? Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:55:49 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25892251 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25889492 I think you are being too harsh and I know the opinion that I am about to share is not popular, but not everyone is able to have what they need to sustain life and fight illness now in America either. I assume that you have had a family member with serious health issues, as I have had, and that you must be aware of the endless paperwork and calls and fights with the insurance bureaucrats to get clearance just for the simplest d*mn tests that are needed to diagnose a real problem. It is pretty frustrating and it does not always turn out with a happy ending. I think there are sometimes five people that you need to get to sign off on one procedure and that is with a private company! They sure do not like to spend their money (i.e. their profit margin) when they can avoid it. I am also surrounded by Brits and Canadians for part of the year. So, I have spoken with them and experienced their health services first hand. They do not complain as much as the Americans I know about red tape. The guidelines there are much clearer and are explained up-front. And the vast majority would not dream of ending their national health systems - bar none. I do not think that we should try and create an NHS system, but as I said, from personal experience, I do not believe the horror stories some people would like to tell about *all* the other G8 nations (not just the United Kingdom and Canada but all the other advanced industrial nations have national health care systems, we alone do not). Nor do I think such one sided talk helps this camp. But I know that I am relatively alone on that. Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:07:49 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25889492 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25868518 And if you want to buy a PC or a Mac or a cell phone or, heck, any electronic device of any type you will not be able to simply buy American. Walmart is a prime example of what Trev84 is talking about, and it is the most popular American retail outlet in the history of our nation (even beating out Sears and Woolworth's) and what was the percentage? sixty plus, maybe, percent of the items on their shelves are made in China. Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:16:33 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25868518 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25864453 I believe the wording was confusing in this case. I think a judge ordered Madoff to "forfeit" up to one hundred and seventy billion dollars. That should more than cover everything that he could have hidden, but to date they have seized property and accounts from him, personally, that come in well under half a single billion. Again, I believe, these numbers are a changing weekly... but the scale of what has been taken (seized), what is really left, and what they are authorized to take is hugely different. And I am very happy that he got the full one hundred and fifty years for what he did. Normally white collar criminals seem to get off too lightly, but that could just be my ill informed impression I suppose. Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:26:15 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25864453 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25863337 Luis, I was drawn to this post for a personal reason. Although it is a large quote, from the site that you listed, I will add that I have a family member who has one of those illnesses that is notorious for causing a long, drawn-out and painful death - and it is notorious for this even with the best that modern medicine and pain management with the strongest narcotics can offer - so, after facing this issue, I am moving towards the camp that supports the right of individuals to say when they go (which can simply be by choosing not to eat) by their own free will and with dignity and freedom. Regarding the article excerpt that you posted: Hitler was a monster in the skin of a human being. And obviously that paper cited is tasteless. Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:09:25 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25863337 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25757160 Thanks again for your words of advice earlier, it certainly seems to have helped me get my messages across more productively. Old habits die hard, of course, so I am certain I will revert on occasion. And to acheyjake, yes, that is what I was also getting at. Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:33:28 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25757160 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25752156 I am not one hundred percent sure about that, it may be true. I think the place to look would be the States. What happens when a State Governor is removed as illegitimate? I suspect that it has happened to a State at least once, and many States have constitutions that are nearly identical to the Federal document in matters like this... so the question would be, how the legislation that was passed and signed into law by the State Congress was handled. It might be that the parties simply agreed that the incoming replacement would simply sign all previously signed Acts into law for the sake of continuity? Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:09:33 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25752156 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25748630 This is not going to be a popular post, but I am one of those people who is not comfortable echoing the equation that BHO = Adolf Hitler. I also think that there is a very real risk that the more we champion this exact parallel the more we will isolate ourselves from the very folks that we want to carry over to our side. Am I the only one who thinks this, and that we don't have to put Adolf's face up just because we see a despot, tyrant and demagogue? Sun, 28 Jun 2009 17:13:44 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25748630 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25743331 Looking4Sanity, I will respond to you rather than Gary as I have always respected the posts that I have seen or received from you, although my comment is also directed at him obviously. I acknowledge that I must come off as snotty, I do think my writing style comes off that way sometimes (or often in your eyes). It may be a generational thing and/or because there is some British background in my formal education... and the tone of written dialogue there is simply different. Still, I do think I have contributed materially to several debates on this site, for example with MeJane (even if we did not see eye to eye we respected each other and the debate that we shared). I am aware, though, that some people here are less comfortable with people criticizing rather than agreeing regularly. And also that a critic, while strengthening our "immune system," like fighting off a cold virus, is everyone's least favorite person - mostly. I will try, agreed, to watch my style and phrasing to be less grating. Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:32:27 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25743331 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25740600 Oh, hello Gary. I see that you are not quite done with your mild tantrum(s). To ignore said whine, and to reiterate my post which is even more apt now: Cheer for our side! Great! And good, but emotional outbursts without reasonable and sober thought behind them can actually be more damaging than helpful. Nuff said, I think. Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:42:11 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25740600 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25739487 Just out of curiosity alsacien, and in part because you seem to know what we should be doing over there in some detail - for the sake of argument let us assume that you are the top commander in Afpak - what differences, if any, do you see between the war that we were engaged in during World War Two and your current assignment in Central Asia? Perhaps, in something other than caps-lock, you could give us a brief rundown of how you might run the show. I guess I am asking you to be a little bit more of an armchair General. Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:22:03 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25739487 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25703511 weezo, you seem to be more than a liberal parakeet, but I kind of have a "forth way" on this environmental stuff. I do think humanity can cr*p all over its neighborhood - just visit a third-world city - and I believe we have changed our surroundings many times in that past - from bronze age Europe to pre-columbian American - so I have no illusions about our ability to mess with the world that we live in. Having said that, I do not think that there is any way in heck that China and India are going to control and constrain their industrial activities. So, that being the case, we can only hurt ourselves by trying to be self-restrained. The human race may poison its litter box, we would certainly not be the first species to do that, but if anything is going to save us it has to rise above the pollution that Chindia produces. That is just my two cents. And the scientists are perhaps our only hope. Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:43:36 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25703511 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25580767 First, if that response is directed at me, there is and never was any question that slavery in the human experience is something that spans all races. And I would be the first to defend that point with numerous examples - as Gary pointed out above in the Anglo-Saxon world it was common, as it was across the entire Germanic world on the continent, as well, and with the Romans and Greeks, and the Han in China and the Gupta Empire in India, and the Ottoman Jannissaries, and the Barbary States of North Africa, and the Bantu of medieval Africa, and etc. ad nausium. Maybe only prostitution, "the world's oldest profession," is more common as a mode of extra-familial relationship in human society. Who knows. Regarding child labor, which runs right into the modern era in the western world, I would agree that it has to be seen as a kind of slavery. Though being beaten is common enough for free men and women in many walks of life; in other words, as others have pointed out, suffering violence as a means of control is not sufficient to define someone as a slave (many slaves were never beaten at all). But, in the historical context of America in the mid nineteenth century - from Charleston to Boston and all towns in between - you bet, in that case, attitudes were very much shaped by the color of one's skin. But, right, that would not have been true in the Rome of Octavian, or the Istanbul of Suleiman the Magnificent, or any number of other places and times. Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:24:11 +0000 http://theglennbeck912project.com/?page_id=2131#IDComment25580767