I went through Basic and AIT at Ft. Leonard Wood about 15 or so years ago, and I remember when we were told about the "free day away" thing. We were not told that we would have to continue with our normal duties while the others who wanted to go had a free day. We were given a day off, just the same as they were, in fact.

That said, what everyone needs to understand is that, in the Basic Training environment, for the majority of us, that was worse... We would have preferred to continue with our normal duties, simply because there was nothing to do. Most of us didn't know the Post too well since we were only there for Basic and had not been able to check it out, and we had little to no access to our money, and none of us had yet earned privileges such as going to the bowling alley for a beer or going off post... None of us were looking forward to a full day of sitting in the barracks staring at the walls so some of them went just to avoid that...

I definitely agree, this IS coercion and it really does need to stop...

I appreciate this post, vjack...

Here's a weird idea... Why don't we, as Atheists, try something new... Why don't we get over ourselves?

We can keep complaining about Atheist discrimination, or we can work to deal with the attitudes from those who discriminate... And that included many Atheists. The sad fact is, if you put a Christian or a Muslim; A Birther or a Young Earth believer in a room full of Atheists, a large number of them will treat that person with the same animosity we're always complaining about. Why do we only complain about it when it comes against us or those we consider our "allies"?

Ending the discrimination we experience is not going to solve the problem. The only thing it would do is make our lives a bit easier, and shift the focus of the narrow minded hatred to another group. If we are going to take up a standard and rally to a cause... Shouldn't it be more along the lines of improving the human race as a whole and not focusing so intensely on this one tiny, insignificant problem?

Ever since the so-called "McCarthy Era" people in the U.S. have both despised and been terrified of Communism and Socialism, and idiots like Bush, Cheney and their minions have done nothing but make it worse. Personally, I think they should all be tried as terrorists for their fear mongering speech and actions, but we have this rule in the U.S. that says we have Freedom of Speech and it seems to come with a guaranteed lack of responsibility clause giving people leave to spout whatever moronic BS that comes into their hopelessly narrow (or exceptionally greedy and selfish) minds without having to deal with any consequences...

Now we have a new bunch of morons screaming that socialized health-care would destroy our way of life; that it is "un-American", that we would have to pay more taxes and that we would lose our ability to choose to go to a private physician... And, of course, the people are believing them.

When I first left the U.S. to live in the Czech Republic, I absolutely freaked on the fact that they pay 19% taxes across the board... I am ashamed to say that, despite my best efforts, I had fallen prey to the narrow minded propaganda without even realizing it. I had visited many other parts of the world while in the Army, but my experiences with the cultures and the people of those places were limited and the majority of my time was spent on one Post or Base or another... I never really realized how things worked in Europe, even when I was stationed in Germany...

I've gotten one hell of an education since then, though. For example... My fiancée is a student working on her Masters degree at Charles University in Prague (which is not only one of the oldest Universities in the Western world, but it is currently one of the top 300 Universities in the world) and we have yet to pay a single cent for her world class education. If she gets sick, she has the option of being treated through the public system which is, just as in Sweden, extremely cheap, or going to a private doctor and paying more. There are all kinds of other benefits as well... Massive amounts of tax breaks and refunds are available for all kinds of reasons. One of my favorites is that a University student who still lives with or off of his/her parents will be able to go to school for free, AND their parents will get an extra refund every year that he/she is a student... They are basically getting paid to send their children to University! How well educated would U.S. citizens be if our system worked so well?

The United States has become synonymous with ignorance and apathy, narrow mindedness and greed, fear and hate, and I'm sick of it. They have become spoiled and selfish. They scream about the Constitution (which none of them really know or understand) when it suits them, and they scream about this Amendment and that Amendment, but they forget the most important part of it...

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I do realize the importance of the Amendments, but we can't forget about the heart of the Constitution... The Amendments are, in the end, just that... Amendments. They were created to give more specific definition to certain aspects of what is the foundation of the document, and to our nation. That "preamble" is what it's really all about, though... Or, should be all about, anyway...

Sorry... I'll get off my soap box now...

That seems to be a large part of it, at least in Czech Republic (as evidenced by the egg and tomato throwing protests at every Communist Party speech here in Prague) but another big part of it is simply anger at the U.S. Once Obama was elected, the tone was greatly changed here, but there is still much animosity here towards us. Let's face it... The U.S. doesn't exactly have a great record when it comes to caring about the needs of other nations, including our allies, and the way the U.S. is dealing with immigration and visas for our smaller allied nations really is taking things a bit too far... Many Czechs, Poles, Slovakians and others from the former "Eastern Block" nations are wondering why they have the same difficulties (and sometimes more) as those from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and the like getting permission to go to the States, and this was happening long before the recent changes to immigration laws...

Thanx for the info about the comment system... I've never seen that problem before, and I only use Firefox, so it surprised me. Whatever it was didn't happen with this comment though...

The politicians over here are a bit annoyed, but the people are relieved. I've lived in Czech Republic for the past 5 years
now and I can tell you, "the people" were not happy about having that defense shield here. They were afraid that its
presence would make them a target, not only for Russia, but also for anti-American terrorist groups. Personally, I'm
glad Obama scrapped that ill conceived plan, just as they are...

What's with the comment box? For some reason, it doesn't seem to recognize the right border... I have to keep hitting
"Enter" when I get there, or it will just keep on going in a single line...

Thank you for that clarification... Thus far, I completely agree with you... Let me ask you this, though: What is your opinion on accepted, yet unproved facts? That which has been "proved in theory" or even mathematically, but never proved or disproved in reality... In other words, would you consider evolution a fact, even though there are still so many unanswered questions? Would you consider the idea that nothing can travel beyond the speed of light to be a fact, even though we've never tried it?

For the record... I'm an Atheist who fully supports Evolutionary theory... I just want to know what you think, and how this post affects or reflects your beliefs...

Thanx

I don't want to jump to any false conclusions BlackSun, so I was wondering if you'd mind explaining what, exactly, you mean when you say, "Defenders of unscientific ideas use gullibility: “you have to keep an open mind,”"?

I realize that this is simply one part of your statement, but it's the only part of the statement with which I could have a problem... Depending on how you mean it...

Thanx

I don't think I would lay too much blame on the media, personally... While they do have a rather large part to play in the problem here, the majority of the blame lies with the people. They are simply wallowing in their ignorance, feeding their preconceived ideas, and feeling superior in their limited knowledge and complete lack of understanding. If they'd bother to look up every now and then, they may realize that the health care system Obama is proposing is very similar to the health care systems implemented here in Europe, and with great success, I might add.

Of course, I can't leave this without pointing out that this tendency to happily maintain a closed mind and obscene willingness to wear blinders is not strictly a U.S. problem. Just as the typical U.S. citizen has little or no clue what is going on across their borders (or in some cases, in the next county!) I see the same thing here. I get just as tired of Europeans telling me how stupid Americans are and pointing out how few of us (per capita) have university degrees and (especially) graduate degrees, but they don't realize that we don't have the benefit of free university education, as they do. My fiancée is about to start her Masters program, and after that, her Doctorate, and she doesn't have to pay a single penny...

Anyway... I do with the media would do a better job of truly informing the people, but the fact is, they tell the people what they want to know... If the people don't want to know more; if the people don't want to hear the truth; if the people don't want an unbiased news source, what's the media to do? Go out of business and be replaced by someone who will whore themselves to the people? Ok... It would be nice if any were that bold, and better if they all were, but the people pay for the medias services and they don't pay to be educated... They pay for confirmation of what they already "know".

I'll come back later and check for mistakes... I have to get coffee now... And, perhaps, stop posting first thing in the morning...

Courage is not the absence of fear, but action even in the face of fear. I wonder... Do you think we'd now have a black president if Rosa Parks had decided to make room for the white bus passenger when she was told to? Or of Martin Luther King Jr. had decided to become a mechanic or a farm hand rather than face the violence he knew would come if he stood up for what he thought was right? Do you think we'd have a black president if the Civil Rights movement had taken place online with the principle players hiding behind pseudonyms instead of in the real world using their real names? The fear felt by the Atheist community is nothing more than justification to the Christians, guys. They see that Atheists are afraid standing up and being counted and they believe it's because Atheists know that they're wrong and that they are ashamed. They look at people like Dr. Dawkins as nothing more than a "fringe" or even "extremist" element, and they concentrate on Atheist cowardice.

The fact is, believe it or not, Atheists are not facing anywhere near the same kind of violence as black people did or Jewish people did, or gay people did, and it is in large part part due to their actions that we will never face that kind of large scale violence.

Yes, you will sometimes meet a freak that will act with physical violence towards what he/she perceives to be a threat, but for the most part, they'll just refuse to have coffee with you. It's not like there are gangs of Christians roving the streets looking for Atheists to beat to death in the alley behind the Atheist bar, or driving through the back roads looking for Atheists to lynch... And, the extreme minority who would take such action against you... Well, you'll find them everywhere. We call them the mentally ill, the criminally insane, the brainwashed, among others. They are the same ones who blow up buildings in the name of Allah, who happens to be a peaceful god, and they happen to be an extreme minority... They are the same ones who blow up abortion clinics in the name of Jesus, who also happens to be a pretty peaceful guy (despite what many people think due to misinterpretations of the bible) and they, too, happen to be an extreme minority.

I've been a proud Christian, and for the past 15 years or so, I've been a proud Atheist. I've talked to people (while making it a point to not shove my beliefs down their throats) and I've had the Darwin bumper stickers on my car. I was in the Army as an Atheist (which was pretty unpopular, believe me) and, due to my fathers military service, my mothers military service and my own military service, I have lived all over the the U.S. and all over the world. I've been an Atheist in Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, Missouri, Texas, Louisiana and even in the tiny town of Pearl, Mississippi. In all that time, being an outspoken (but not pushy) Atheist, the only 2 instances physical violence I've ever met were 1) by a hippie who didn't realize that the Vietnam war had been over for a good 20 years, threw a wine bottle at me and called me a baby killer, and 2) a guy who's girlfriend had been hitting on me, and he didn't appreciate it... My Atheism, by bumper stickers, or the word Atheist on my dog tags was never an issue in the violence.

I've learned a lot from all my travels. I've learned that humans are humans, no matter what label they wear, what box they put themselves into, or what god they serve. Some will be violent, some will be angry, some will be confused, some will be sad, some will accept and some just won't give a damn... That's just the way it is. If Atheists ever want to be truly accepted, one of these days they're going have to push away from the keyboard, go to the coffee shop and introduce themselves. They're going to have to be counted. That, too, is just the way it is. No one is going to give the Atheist community the respect they want (and deserve) as long as they're hiding and afraid...

Sorry for any editing errors or disconnected speech... I'm on my first cup of coffee...

I'm sorry, but if we're now going to use such an argument as this, shouldn't we be saying that the mentally and/or emotionally disturbed/disabled are more likely to feel the need to follow a religion? Seems to me these cases point to a mental problem rather than a link to religion... It's been my experience that, while those with mental/emotional problems may be more likely to find what they need in a religion, mental illness is by no means limited to the religious...