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550 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - One argument that I no... · 0 replies · +2 points

Maybe I missed it, but --

Did anyone bring up the verse in Genesis post-flood?

Genesis 8:21 -- The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."

Though I suppose one could argue that "childhood" is not the same as "birth", hmn?

550 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - “Following the Proph... · 1 reply · +2 points

I know there are lots of prophecies that Joseph Smith made that didn't come true. One was about the BoM copyright in Canada and another was about the temple being built in Missouri (was it? or am I mixing up locations) before a certain time. In both cases, the prophecies didn't come true. There was also a war prophecy that didn't come true.

I brought these up to an LDS friend once, and she said she hadn't ever really examined JS's prophecies, but that just because they didn't come true didn't mean anything. Especially since maybe they just "didn't come true yet". That was specific to the war prophecy. I just read up on it again on MRM:

I find it interesting, suddenly, that exactly what MRM says there at the end is, nearly, word-for-word the "excuse" I got from my friend. Bill says on MRM: In order to maintain the integrity of the Mormon prophet, some Latter-day Saints insist that this prophecy stretches beyond the Civil War and actually includes both world wars. To suggest such an interpretation shows how futile and frantic Mormon apologists can become. The prophecy clearly states these "wars" will begin with the rebellion of South Carolina. To say these world wars had any connection whatsoever with the rebellion at South Carolina defies reasoning.

My point is that, of course you can think of incidents where Mormon prophets were wrong. Look at polygamy. Look at blacks holding the priesthood. Look at many MANY of JS's prophecies. Now I realize in the Bible that there are many prophecies that take a long time to come true -- yes. But some of JS's are so specific ...

Let's not even get into the idea that one LDS prophet says one thing and another says something contradictory. It just completely boggles my mind: how is anyone to know "truth" period?

551 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - One argument that I no... · 6 replies · +2 points

Wow. I think this is one of the biggest and most devastating misinterpretations and misrepresentations that Mormons have.

We are here to gain Knowledge. To know good from evil.

God FORBID the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. God said, DON'T DO IT.

It is SATAN who says, in Genesis Chapter 3 that Eve should eat the fruit. SATAN tempts Eve with the knowledge of good and evil and Eve gives in to the sin and temptation and eats of it. It is SATAN who plants the seed in humanity that there is something we can do besides obey God. Mormonism's entire plan of eternal progression, the doctrine of the ability to become gods and be (literally) immortal and be (literally) like God -- these things are of SATAN.

Let's take a look at Genesis Chapter 3 again ...

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[skipping ahead]

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24So he drove out the man

I really don't know how much plainer the Bible can be.

God created man to live in paradise alongside God. Enter Satan, who tempted man with delusions of grandeur, of knowledge, of power, of immortality. Man gave in. God saw that it was NOT GOOD. And He drove man out of His presence. He tells man he will die one day, instead of living forever in God's presence. I don't even understand how you can see the fall as anything else but a DIRECT disobeying of God's command.

551 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - One argument that I no... · 25 replies · +2 points

I was re-reading Genesis and the Garden of Eden story again and it struck me how strange it is that Mormons have taken the story and meaning of the Garden of Eden and turned it upside down. Not only that, but they move everything that happened in the garden into a "pre-existence" instead of just letting the garden be the garden and original sin be original sin.

This is how I understand pre-existence and, thus, the children getting a free pass and then the plan for salvation and everything (of course, as I'm not a Mormon, I've probably got something wrong here): God birthed us all as spirit children in heaven with him. And at some point, we decide we want to be born into earth. So God gives us free will (free agency?) to go off and be born into this world, where we don't remember knowing him and have the opportunity to come to know him again and find his church here on earth. If we use our agency to do this, if we don't let sin and Satan lead our lives, then with the help of Christ's Atonement, we can work to become worthy and return to God in heaven.

Now, here's how I have always understood the Garden of Eden: God created the world out of nothing, and He created man and woman and gave them paradise, living in God's immediate presence. Adam and Eve fell into temptation and disobeyed God. God was upset and drove them out of his presence and out of the garden, where they would always be tempted and drawn to sin. But then he sent Jesus Christ to be gracious and merciful on all of us sinners, and he gave us the opportunity to return to his presence in the paradise of heaven and eternal life.

My question is: why isn't the Bible, God's word, reality, good enough for Mormons? Why do they have to make other stuff up?

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Mormonism’s Sabbath ... · 0 replies · +2 points

Hi Kate!

I'm a Bible-believing Christian. Have never been a Mormon. Very glad to have you here and welcome. I pray that you continue your wonderful new walk with Jesus!

As for the 10 commandments -- I do believe that they exist for a reason and that we're meant to follow them. What Jesus said in his "greatest commandment" moment (to love God and to love your neighbor) pretty much sums up the 10 commandments.

Think of it this way: If you love your neighbor, you will not steal from them. If you love your neighbor, you will not kill them. If you love your husband/wife, you will not commit adultery. If you love God, you will keep the Sabbath and make it holy. If you love God, you will have no other gods before Him.

Do you see what I'm saying? It's not that the 10 commandments are discarded, but it's that Jesus Christ made following them so much simpler!

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you do this, you will keep the 10 commandments.

Galatians 5:14 says: For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Mormonism’s Sabbath ... · 0 replies · +2 points

f_melo you always find what I'm trying to say and forget or miss, so thank you!

I agree that it's smart to be well-prepared. In fact, my roommate and I were just talking about putting together an emergency preparedness kit just in case. I mean, getting stuck in an apartment in Manhattan in the event of something catastrophic does not sound fun at all! We're just ensuring we have water and matched and batteries and blankets. But being prepared because it's logical and smart is VERY different than it being an important enough part of "Christ's Church" that it warrants its own heading on under "Our Faith".

My faith teaches me to believe that God will always provide.

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Mormonism’s Sabbath ... · 3 replies · +2 points

In the realm of buying food (and since they clearly get the Sabbath wrong)--

Do you know what always confuses me (one of many things, honestly)?

The Mormon preoccupation with "being prepared" -- says: We believe in being prepared as much as possible for physical and financial disasters.

Almost weekly it seems, we learn of a new disaster occurring somewhere in the world. But disasters can also happen privately within the walls of our homes. Calamities such as the loss of a job, an overwhelming debt, a serious injury, a home mortgage we can no longer afford to pay, and so forth. We believe in being as prepared as possible for such challenges. For example, we are advised to have an adequate supply of food, drinking water and financial reserves.

Matthew 6: 25-34: 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

It CONTINUALLY amazes me how often Mormons completely ignore the words and teachings of Jesus and then turn right around and say, but his name is in the name of our church!

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Mormonism’s Sabbath ... · 5 replies · +2 points

I couldn't even watch the entire thing.

I'll be back later with a better comment.

In the meantime: Matthew 12:1-14

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Salvation and Grace · 0 replies · +3 points

Missed my point entirely. My point is the Biblical scripture reads:

John 3:16 God gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mormon Ezra Taft Benson taught: He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever would believe in Him and comply with His laws and ordinances would have everlasting life.

The good news is what it says in John 3:16. The Mormon church has denied the good news by adding to it and saying "that's not enough" you ALSO have to "comply with His laws and ordinances". This is NOT what the good news is. This is the distorted, false gospel of the Mormon church.

552 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Salvation and Grace · 4 replies · +6 points

This part of one of the quotes struck me as particularly insightful into the mind and definition of the LDS grace:

Grace consists of God’s gift to His children wherein He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever would believe in Him and comply with His laws and ordinances would have everlasting life.

Put that against the actual words of John 3:16:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What's missing from the Bible? OH! Just that pesky business of complying with His laws and ordinances.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Galatians 1:6-12
Deuteronomy 4:2

All these verses have to do with not adding to the Word or adding to the good news. And that is precisely what Mormons have done -- quite literally in the case of Ezra Taft Benson -- added words not taught by Jesus or God or the Apostles.