How is the difference so stark? Both NATO and the EU impose rights and obligations on the UK. NATO for example would oblige us to go to war to defend a fairly nasty regime in Turkey, while it would give us the "right" to ask for aid in the event of a Russian attack on Rockall! I've selected the most hideous obligation and the most trivial right, but that is the point - all our international relations involve rights and obligations, or costs and benefits. I think the balance of those in both the cases of NATO and the EU is clearly favourable to the UK. Whereas "arguments" against NATO from the far Left are often rooted simply in racist anti-Americanism, and there is certainly on the far Right plenty of xenophobia in attitudes towards the EU.
The point is that the right thing to do is to dispassionately address what is best for our country.
UK independence is just the name of a party, and even that party doesn't believe in it: UKIP policy is to remain a member of NATO. This impinges on our independence more than anything else I can think of - and rightly so in my view - via its mutual defence requirements. There is no independence for any second tier nation, which is what we are: only the US and China are first tier.
Re UKIP, whether the Farage is actually supporter of NATO is less clear; he certainly has not been shy of expressing admiration for Putin... another thing that unites the far Right with Corbyn, Seamus Milne and the far Left and brings us full circle.
I can't toss out a government. I can vote in the constituency I live in. I can't change the nature of my parish council, local council, my county council, the UK government or the EU commission. But I think the loss of my personal (illusory) sovereignty is worth paying for the greater benefit of my family and friends.
What worries me are those - both on the left and right - who don't have positive arguments for their views, only negative ones. I note that you don't endorse Angry of SE1 apparent endorsement of violence, so I will assume you are not one of those who can only define themselves by what they are not. I am, as you kindly point out, a "loser" in regard to Brexit - but I think that we will all end as losers, and most of all those who have the least in our society.
Really? I can't get rid of my MP, he's got a majority of about 20k. (And before he started voting for Leave, I didn't want to).
Of course the Leave vote and the Remain vote can be parsed.... I've already told you I voted Remain despite holding the EU in low esteem. I suppose there are some EUphiles - people who think it is great - though I've never met one. And there is I think unarguably a spectrum of views on between both "Angry of SE1" (who elsewhere on this site today suggests (not directed at me) "(t)hat Extremists like you can drop this basic principle so easily, shows you cannot be persuaded by argument and perhaps at some stage more robust remedies will need to be considered. ") and the voter who made up their mind to vote Leave in the polling booth.
To quote you elsewhere on this site today: "That Extremists like you can drop this basic principle so easily, shows you cannot be persuaded by argument and perhaps at some stage more robust remedies will need to be considered. " Do share what those remedies will be?
You can perhaps see why I fear your ilk. Perhaps that pleases you.
You seem to have made two mistakes in what you write above. First you assume that the 17 million people who voted with you for Brexit are equally consumed with passion by the issue. My pity and fear is not directed at people who voted differently from me, any more than I would fear or pity a normal Labour voter. It is direct at the Brexit-obsessives (do correct me if you are not one?) and the hard Left.
Second, you imply that just because I think we should Remain I am "wed" to the EU. For your information I think the EU is in many regards a fairly crap organisation, but I think it is clearly in our interests to be part of it. I also think the UK government is fairly crap organisation - having a sceptical view of government used to be a defining characteristic of a Conservative, didn't it? - but I think it is in interests of my family, my street, my town and my county to be part of the UK.
And then you just veer off into some rant about "small town mayor types" - do you think UK politicians are somehow genetically or racially superior to foreign ones? A fairly hateful and implausible view I would argue.
Agree. Utterly depressing to see the state of our party, the spinelessnes of our MPs who will not stand up for their country and will not face down the Kipper infestation of the party. And remember that this lunacy will lead to us getting a Corbyn government.
It seems entirely reasonable to me to compare many Brexiteers to many Momentumites. I'm sure the majority of your ilk love our country, and I'm sure many Corbynites do too. But what further unites you is that you are so consumed with hatred of the "other" - for your ilk hatred of some mix of the EU, Remainers, Germans, Elites etc,; for the Corbynites their hatred of Business, the Rich, Tories, Jews etc. - that you have lost all ability to what is in the interests of your country.
What also makes the Hard Brexit mob and Hard Left mob similar is how I feel about them. I pity you and them for leading such bitter lives. But I also fear them and you and fear what they or you will do the country that I too love.
Yes, in practical terms many parents are forced to send their children to faith schools. There is often no acceptable alternative within reasonable distance.
We do not routinely offer homeopathy on the NHS, so why would we offer superstition and mummery in our Education system? Particularly, why as conservatives would we do so with massive subsidies?
I think we established 10 years ago that Conservatives no longer found misogyny and homophobia acceptable. Why do we fail to challenge the appalling attitudes of the major religions in those regards and why do we use taxpayers' money to promote them in faith schools?
But the church got the money for those schools through deceit (indulgences), lies (salvation) and extortion (tithes). Its funding of schools now is negligible or possibly even negative considering its abuse of tax loopholes.
And as for its moral compass, it is beyond the pale. I would no more allow my children in a betting shop or a brothel.