Hey mate. Again - fair and valid points.

There is a difference between lying and being disingenuous though. They obviously were confident their plan would work, (players would come in, success would be achieved and the stadium completed). Thus they were thinking that no one would bat an eye lid while debts were so well accepted (just like at United) and a way of life for many. Look at how quiet it went at Old Trafford.

Those who wanted them out in part though created the grey areas. Had the stock line been 'they have been disingenuous and not delivered any of the hope they told us they would, while piling debt onto the club' I think a lot more neutrals would have been won over. That statement is hard(er) to argue with. As they weren't 'lies' an automatic defence is created, it gets emotive and technically (now I am splitting hairs) we're lying about lying!

The credit crunch put an end to the plans and as I have recently said maybe this was for the best (long term security). Even the long term peace at Old Trafford has now gone. A friend of mine was at the last game and emailed me to say there were demonstrations outside the ground.

I also take your last point. While I have been fully aware of what has been happening, as you know I have only really got 'involved' over the past few months. I know I should have kept my trap shut ;-)

You have seriously given me pause for thought! I still think Purslow deserves till May as business never happens quickly, or if it does it's usually a disaster.

Sorry I'm taking over your comments section again! Note to self: Learn how to be more succinct!

Hey mate. I have sat squarely on the fence since I have known you. That has not changed to date. Mainly because from a business perspective (this being the area I come from) I think I can see what the plan was and how it fell apart. There has never been, therefore, to date something for me to pin a decision on as per all my posts. Posts which were not designed to defend H&G, but to simply explain why I feel unable at the moment to be for or against them. Despite a lot of people (because I proposed the other possible side of the story) interpreting them as defensive.

There have always been grey areas. A prime example being that it is a statement of record and fact that the club was bought with no debts. Therefore a lie? No, disingenuous - very possibly.

Since our first dialogue and my subsequent dealings with others I would quite like to see H&G sell up. Not because I'm anti H&G, their model was flawed when they set up or because I think they made all their money by luck. Some thinking that any idiot can make hundreds of millions. It's simply so we can put all this 'the owners' continual drama to bed. I do worry though that we have set a precedent. It is asked "who would want to get in bed with H&G?". Who would want to buy the club outright knowing the level of grief they could get if they can't continually meet the demands of growth, tradition, profits, no debts, commercial success, community etc? Someone is always going to want to buy the club of course, but it would surely put some off. Mr. Sultan could be seen as a hero at other clubs, or closely scrutinised by us?

You raise some very valid points (especially about UEFA) but this is all relatively new. As a business the club has to react, but they should do so in a considered and constructive way. So answers won't be forthcoming quickly. A frustration I know both you and I share. The answers aren't needed till 2013 at the earliest and no businessman would allow that sort of revenue (champions league) to just disappear.

You already know that I wanted Purslow to have more of a grilling. But he now seems to be thrown into the 'them' of H&G. I think some patience is required. At the moment getting to May and seeing if we have investment or a spade in the ground will finally give me something to base a decision on. Without either it can be sufficiently argued that the current regime is having a significant detrimental effect on the future prosperity of the club. If they both arrive, well hopefully we can start debating football?

I hope you don't class me as one of those who is 'not worried'. The situation in football generally, never mind the added complications at Anfield, should make us worried. But I assume we can be worried, be providing some extra time (benefit of the doubt) and still be fans?

Shit that was long - sorry :-)

Hey mate, as ever a spot on post. It's a difficult problem. Although it would appear that some sort of market correction is possibly underway. The lack of major transfer activity at Old Trafford as well as Anfield being a clear sign of the over leverage problems. That said it will no doubt take a catastrophe for the FA to finally get involved properly.

In relation to our owners I'm unsure if they are bumbling buffoons or are dealing with a long term plan, hindered by the credit crunch. If it is the latter then we may simply be going through the painful part of the long term plan.

Ideal owners? I still stand by my idea of a flotation with shareliverpool/sos holding a big enough equity % so it can't go private again, H&G still keeping a large (but not controlling) stake for a return and the rest being owned by other fans and businesses. This would bring in the required investment and would impose additional controls to ensure our financial viability.

Guest1892 - Excellent point!

Hey Mate. At the age of 23 he should be providing more consistency than he does. You mention the Lyon goal (which was superb) but then 10 minutes later he had a free kick outside the box which went out for a throw in! His wage would cover another 1 or 2 players who could play with consistency and offer a threat IMO.

There is no doubting his ability but the lack of consistency can only come from his own mentality and attitude.

It is feasible, given our current financial situation, that Rafa is having to keep him. We would no doubt have to sell him at a loss at a time when the club can't stomach it. The remainder of his contract sitting on the balance sheet could well be worth more than what clubs are willing to pay.

So he'll stay until the summer and Rafa is no doubt hoping a run in the World Cup will increase his value to allow him to offload. The downside is that after being offloaded he will no doubt then have 'something to prove' which will drive him to play with consistency and everyone will ask Rafa why he got rid!

Should Babel go? For business reasons, no. For football reasons, yes.

Don't know much about the guy but both my brothers rate him. Let's hope he can make a difference!

Excellent work mate and thanks for the heads up!

Yup, there are games where we really need to shake things up. We are really predictable at the moment and in need of a refresh. Especially against the 'lower quality' teams. The formation and tactics employed against United (and the first half of Arsenal) were spot on and the two defensive midfielders worked. Against better quality teams it makes sense to play like that in what should be a cagey encounter. Against Wigan and Portsmouth though, we should change things a bit and go on the attack!

Let's hope this is the bottom of the bad run (Finally)

Hi Arthur, there is definitely a shared responsibility throughout the club from top to bottom. The owners have made mistakes, as have the players and Rafa. Most people though continue to attribute blame to one person or group. Right now though I hope most can put everything to one side and just get behind the club as a whole. The general 'feeling' around the club is not good amongst the fan base and I find it hard to believe this doesn't have some sort of affect.

Fingers crossed eh?

Hey Robbo, first off don't worry I will think of a post soon we can disagree on - it's all getting a bit too much for me ;-)

Yes I'd agree that there are a subset of fans who's experience should qualify them to offer opinions with, what should be recognised as, some 'weight behind them'. With, of course, the exception of those with an agenda and are thus abusing their power. That's not those I disagree with but those who are intent on only portraying one side of a story!

All the best to you and yours as well mate. Let's hope we have a better New Year!

Robbo, what's going on? I keep commenting on your blog, instead of you on mine and again, I find myself nodding my head and agreeing with you! That's twice in a row, nearly a run!

Excellent post mate, well balanced and lets hope that things pick up soon!

Did you catch my post yesterday and if so do you agree that a shake up is needed?