gdp's Comments

Pastoralia : Contours of Post-Christendom Vineyard Ministry

Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:48:25 +0000

Grace - thank you so much for adding your comments. I agree. I am aware of Bob Hyatt's community and have been watchful. Thanks for pointing him out. Feel free to jump into the discussion here anytime : )

Pastoralia : Contours of Post-Christendom Vineyard Ministry

Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:46:12 +0000

Hey Jules - You've touched on much here, mostly about the tactics of childrens ministry. I can't address it all, except to say that every Vineyard church does it differently, so 12 week rotations, 1 week rotations, 3 month rotations, yearly rotations...I've seen them all in different churches. The bigger point is that the childrens and youth ministry system you're describing don't work - not just for getting volunteers, but, more importantly, for making disciples. The data indicates that most kids grow up and leave the church. Moreover, the system of "church" itself (within which Sunday school and youth ministry depend) - that is, "come to us to get your weekly spiritual fix from the professionals" - doesn't work either. Church, by and large, doesn't reach most people in emerging cultures because it is based on a Christendom mindset, and Christendom is nearly dead in the west. But even those people who are reached aren't discipled effectively because the church expends too many resources trying to attract and hold people and not enough resources trying to train them to effectively follow Christ. Therefore, the issue is not tweaking scheduls and creating new youth programs, it's about rethinking the foundational assumptions on which the institution is built. These comments come from those who have rethought the institution and have consequently abandoned many of its structures - especially the structures that look like consumer products. That creates a difficult void for the task of discipling children and youth because the most consumer-oriented products in Christendom churches ARE the children and youth ministries. So the question is essentially, If we don't do Sunday school or youth groups anymore because those models aren't theologically tenable or even pragmatically effective, how DO we disciple our kids? Lots of people have ideas (including me and Jenell) but to my knowledge nobody has proven anything yet. I'm not sure anybody will - for at least a half a generation. Spiritual fruit takes a lifetime to germinate.

Pastoralia : Contours of Post-Christendom Vineyard Ministry

Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:28:59 +0000

Thanks for being so transparent about your struggles with family ministry. Over the years, in emerging circles, I know a variety of approaches have been tried but it seems like nothing has taken root as a proven approach. The tensions you describe seem common among the various missional leaders I know who have children of their own.

Pastoralia : Roger Ebert and Prophetic Memory

Tue, 12 Jan 2010 17:50:41 +0000

...and my heart was strangely warmed...

Well, it's about time. Welcome to the Kingdom. : )

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Mon, 11 Jan 2010 21:58:15 +0000

Ardell, I think that's very true, and I think there are a variety of Vineyard churches across the spectrum that have demonstrated a re-embrace of a few traditional liturgical practices. Ken Wilson's church in Ann Arbor has even re-imagined the "radical middle" concept as a "radical center," turning the linear continuum into a quadrant that includes spaces for liturgical and social justice space. I've used the offices of prayer on and off and have settled into a few other practices as well such as the use of prayer beads and the stations of the cross. AlI that is pretty widespread, I think. I guess I took Hunter's comment as a prediction of large-scale return to liturgical traditions, but maybe I misunderstood. Still, there's a difference between appropriating some traditional elements and becoming Anglican or Catholic or Orthodox. I affirm much in those traditions, but some of my theological underpinnings preclude me from joining any of them as an adherent.

Pastoralia : Roger Ebert and Prophetic Memory

Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:19:14 +0000

Scott, what a fantastic addition to this post! Thank you so much for sharing this vivid image. It's gonna stick with me for a long time. Incidentally, I have a friend whose MFA project at Fuller is making a documentary movie about wine-making as a metaphor for faith. Your comments reminded me of his project. Blessings.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:39:08 +0000

I really agree with your assessment, both about the use of the word missional and the idea of a revival of religion. The symbols must be recast in order to function as sysmbols. Perhaps they can with a generation for who they are essentially a blank slate, and I'm sure that will be the case for certain temperament types. But as I consider it, I keep remembering something Don Williams has often said: "Religion is our last line of defense against the living God." Even if Todd is right, for how many people will it simply be that last line of defense?

Pastoralia : Did Tony Jones Kill The Vineyard?

Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:35:46 +0000

Scott, thank you very much for providing an Australian perspective. Interestingly, I would say your description is startlingly similar to the U.S. situation.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:30:49 +0000

Oh Tom, I know you generally disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but it would be more helpful if you contributed the substance of your reasoning (back-handed flattery is not a support for your argument). I agree the word missional will likely turn out to be faddish or trendy, but that doesn't mean the discussion is unimportant. Faddish terms don't necessarily equate to faddish ideas. When language becomes trite - as it always does - and old terms evolve to connote faddish ideas, it's helpful to coin new terms in order to renew the discussion of older, more important ideas. That is what the missional conversation is all about. Maybe I'm wrong, but, if so, it would be helpful if you contributed an argument rather than merely a conclusion.

Pastoralia : Did Tony Jones Kill The Vineyard?

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:48:27 +0000

(Amusing indeed!) Those are great questions Steve, and worthy of a dedicated new thread someday om someone's blog.

Pastoralia : Did Tony Jones Kill The Vineyard?

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:19:36 +0000

Very well said! I think you'd find that the SVS initiative is driven by exactly the desire you're articulating here - and by some of those first gen leaders, no less (I know this has been a dream of Bert's for several years)! The beauty of such an initiative in the Vineyard is that it's more accessible and grassroots than it might be in other settings. I'm very hopeful that in the coming years it will be a breeding ground for pushing into fresh directions. Like Wimber famously said, "Take the best and go."

Thanks again!

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:07:45 +0000

Hey Joshua, thanks for commenting.

I think you make some great points about sticking to important core values. I especially like that you've focused on being spirit-led and holding to an eschatologically-oriented, Christ-focused Kingdom theology. I do think, though, that we need to guard against the temptation to view this is a contest between churches. Just because I tend to see missional and attractional as irreconcilable polarities doesn't mean I'm struggling against my friends who adhere to an attractional approach. Everyone is pursuing whatever form they genuinely believe is most effective for disciple-making, and I'd be pretty arrogant if I didn't celebrate the fact that those churches are doing good, Kingdom work and bringing people into relationship with Christ.

Besides, I'm probably wrong. : )

Thanks again for pitching in. I hope you add more as we pursue this topic a little further.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 04:32:11 +0000

Tension indeed! Well said again.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:36:22 +0000

Well, you've both touched on a major pet peeve of mine. I brought it up today in our little experimental Vineyard huddle. "Missional" can mean anything from outreach to evangelism to discipleship to social justice efforts to "going out" For me, it's informed by Newbigin and idea of joining the spirit in the world expressing missio dei. Mission belongs to God. Frank, in line with your comments, this is deeper than just differing definitions of mission. Usually when I push that in a group I find that different definitions of mission come from differing opinions of what the gospel is. "Substitutionary atonement in a slick package." Indeed. Thanks guys. Great comments.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:28:24 +0000

Jonathan, I'm so glad you brought the CC perspective to this discussion. I spent the better part of the latter 70's and 80's at Greg Laurie's church in Riverside, and I have to say that by the time I was 14 or 15 (1984-ish) I was sensing (and struggling with) some of that rigorous fundamentalism. Having said that, I really agree that it's a caricature that can't be extended to every CC any more than the "Toronto Blessing" insanity can be applied to every Vineyard.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:24:07 +0000

Me too and I think Franks comment above about "building around values (not doctrines)" has been the key to that grassroots freedom. I'm grateful for it.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:22:31 +0000

I know this is unpopular, but I'm pretty well convinced that missional and attractional represent a polarity. That's not to say I can't appreciate what attractional churches can, and have done - but I don't think it's possible to have it both ways for both theological and cultural reasons. I'm willing to be wrong : )

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:17:58 +0000

Thanks Bryan, I'm glad you jumped in. One of the catch-phrases in the Vineyard is "the radical middle," which originally referred to finding the best of the evangelical and pentecostal worlds, without having to carry the negative baggage as well. Over the years that both/and catch-phrase has come to be applied to all kinds of things and I think you've hit upon that same spirit with your comments. Thanks for sharing!

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 22:19:07 +0000

I wish you were here too Steve. I look forward to your longer response.

Pastoralia : Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:40:38 +0000

It's a fantastic book. I didn't touch on those issue as "crossroads" in this post because, at the risk of sounding like a fanboy, they've largely been placed front and center by the US Vineyard leadership for nearly 10 years now (with the exception of consumerism, the critique of which has been very weak in the Vineyard IMO). Of course, that doesn't mean we've figured out good solutions to white western captivity, but we're trying, and I don't think anyone in the Vineyard would consider those issues optional : ) Good to have yo here Daniel!