en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/721838 Comments by grotesque http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/09/uk-east-lancashire-mosque-donates-47k.html#IDComment198122266 Why? Did you live there for 10 years to form your opinion about Islam? Anyway, my point was give credit where it's due, instead of showing yourself as someone who will never budge from your position. One loses the incentive for doing good, if he realizes there is nothing he can do to gain approval. So, why bother tring to behave well Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:59:47 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/09/uk-east-lancashire-mosque-donates-47k.html#IDComment198122266 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/09/uk-east-lancashire-mosque-donates-47k.html#IDComment198084654 Wow, you are so brilliant for figuring this out. Those scheming bastards. Seriously, if they do bad, it's because "they are inherently, evil, Islam, bad.. the terrorism, oh...". And if they do good, its because "they are trying to fool people, inside they are planning, scheming.... " Listen to yourself, you sound like a child who is fascinated with conspiracy theories Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:20:32 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/09/uk-east-lancashire-mosque-donates-47k.html#IDComment198084654 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45840788 More of what in your opinion would be the best way to tackle this muslim-west Europe divide Fri, 4 Dec 2009 20:10:07 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45840788 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45837352 Well, atleast you claim you are not against everything islamic or muslim. But you did say a lot of things, which can easily be interpreted as just that. Sometimes, you do confuse me. At times, like the one on bradford mosque, you said you appreciated the fact that muslims called themselves brits? While at other times, you have said "many muslims are in fact extremists, or at least intolerant of other religions","muslims are to blame", "Islam is an intolerant religion", "not compatible" and more. These kind of totalitarian statements dont exactly foster closer ties nor create an atmosphere for better understanding. I will list below few solutions,which i believe,while not being harsh on Islam would address this Islam-west Europe problem. 1) Impose total ban on immigration for 10 years, after which it will be reviewed. 2)Educate the muslims here on a mass scale(unemployment is a key reason of most of the muslims feeling marginalized) and the others(non-muslims) on tolerance. I am afraid muslims are here to stay and that should be accepted. Foreign clerics, even suspected of radical preachings must not be given any kind of visit visas. 3)Hold inter-faith dialogues involving clergy,politicians and civilian representative bodies. Monitor the progress district wise regularly. Actually this policy is set to be implemented in some state in India. What is your ideology? And I will read about the Gallup polls. Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:30:49 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45837352 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45827816 >>>Actually, you said, "Educate the muslims here on a mass scale and the others on tolerance. The others meant non-muslims >>>If only 10% of Swiss muslims are religious, then why all the uproar about minarets? Thats because the ban was percieved this as a rejection of muslims, which i think it is. >>>The reason many think of many muslims as extremists is because many can be perceived as that. ...... Thats the problem, isnt it. It can only be cleared by talks and cannot be solved if their exists fear and suspicion of all muslims. 9/11 or any violence certainly isnt justified. But justifying islamophobia because of the perpetrators of these voilent acts isnt right too. You quote a poll result, supposedly conducted by a guy worldwide. usually thse polls are conduced on a pool of people, who do not necessarily represent the whole population. It would have been conducted online on some site. Hardly trustworthy, dont you think? And it amazes me you use this as the basis of your phobia. I bet more than a minimum of 50% of readers here will wish the same on muslims. So, do i go around calling every christian as violent scum? And anyway, even if by a long shot the poll is precise(which i dont believe for a moment), 2/3rds oppose violence. Still doent justify your blaming all muslims. Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:44:51 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45827816 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45825232 As for my comments on the 3 muslim majority European countries being rejected free-visas, i did not know that they had certain criteria to be fulfilled and they did not meet them. My mistake. Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:19:07 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45825232 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45822493 >>>Why is it necessary that Europe educate the muslims on tolerance? No, i said educate the non-muslims on tolerance. The reason i say this is because the swiss (most europeans) percieve muslims as threats. 60% of swiss muslims are from former yugoslavia and are totally non-religious. It is said only about 10% of swiss muslims are religious. And none are extremists. So, why do they percieve them as threats. They should talk about it, rather than keep their fears(which may be baseless) to themselves. This is what i meant by education on tolerance, >>>>Perhaps it's time to quit blaming the Europeans and put the blame where it belongs--on the Muslims themselves and their intolerant religion with its disrespect for European culture. This was the kind of attitude i was talking about. Even if a majority of muslims are moderates(like in switzerland), people nowadays bunch them with extremists and fundamentalists. If a religion as a whole is attacked, then the moderates,no doubt, will also defend themselves and even go on the offensive, leading people to believe this is a clash of religions and hence worsening things Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:47:16 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45822493 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45810212 I know a lot of people here will reply saying "muslims are barbarians", "muslims deserve that", "muslims are evil and should be...", but i will say it anyway. The minaret vote is now passe, but an interesting observation from bosnia about EU free visa rejection was made. How is that justified? Apparently the only countries to have been rejected from this are Albania, bosnia and kosovo, the only 3 European countries with muslim majority? This is so blatant. Europeans are no longer hiding their position - they will tolearate muslims, but only as a second class separate entity. I see Europe slowly but steadily advancing to an era that existed just before WW2, only the victims at that time were jews. It's quite obvious whats happening. I see only one way out. 1) Impose total ban on immigration for 10 years, after which it will be reviewed. 2)Educate the muslims here on a mass scale and the others on tolerance. I am afraid muslims are here to stay and that should be accepted. Foreign clerics, even suspected of radical preachings must not be given any kind of visit visas. What i have tried to say in my previous posts is we should stop the isolation, suspicion and blaming of muslims. This will only radicalize them more. I really do not know why it is so hard for the current day politicians to understand Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:17:24 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-muslim-responses-to-minaret-ban.html#IDComment45810212 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45298785 Apostasy is forbidden in iran, yes. But the christians and jews there are granted all the things they need to practice their religion freely. Iran does lack that and you can fight for that. As regards to your claims of oppression in Egypt, and in pakistan, them being low class workers,i am sure thousands of muslims in Europe will tell you how they feel marginalized and oppressed. However i wont refute your claims, but you should be open minded to realize that muslims also "feel" they go through the same things here. >>>Demands are made of Christians that they pay special taxes. This was an ancient practise and has since been abolished. Not a single country has implemented it. There will always be fundamentalists who will demand such abhorrent things. But right wings in most of Europe also want similar things. Dont they? - Tax on headscarf. The point i wanted to make is that Muslims can now claim their suppression of other religion's right's is a response to the swiss's restrictions. Before this vote, they had no claims on goverments as a whole being repressive. Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:20:02 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45298785 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45294243 >>>Have Christians ever claimed that? Does not Europe condemn countries like china, cuba, iran,etc for suppressing human rights, expression of speech, religion? Your suggestion is if christians begin to face harrassment in Asia or Africa, you dont give a damn, because according to your priest, "Love your next" is the Christian spirit? >>>>I would not go so far as to love conquerors ;) Yes, thats the point. This feeling among people that they are conquerers. Muslims comprise 4% in switzerland and are mostly moderate ones from the balkans. This confuses what the fight is for. Against anything Islamic or muslim fundamentalists. Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:40:36 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45294243 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45291231 Yes, minarets werent part of mosques until 80 years after prophets death. But since then they have become part of mosque architecture. They were initially built to call out for prayer from a high vantage point so the voice would reach many. Since the advent of speakers, this wasnt necessary, but mosques continued to be built in the same way, as minarets had become associated with mosques by then. But this vote signifies an irrationality since its only aim was to tell the muslims they are not welcome. Every muslm country except saudi arabia allows churches to be built. There are over 50 countries with muslim majority. I just hope they dont react by banning crosses from churches or something silly like that. Even a hardline Islamic country like Iran allows churches and gaurentees their protection, allows selling of non-halal food for them and allows them to implement their own marriage laws. You can be sure, christians have lost the moral high ground in the religious freedom game. Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:11:33 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/opinion-unspoken-assumption.html#IDComment45291231 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45272605 I guess what i am trying to say is that the only hadith which talks of this is not only weak, but also doesnt come across as an order to do it. More importantly, all major muslim sects have said they dont see it as being Islamic. So, when addressing this problem, it should be treated as a custom based one rather than as an islamic one. It is primarily practiced among africans. Here is an example,according to WHO, in Liberia, the prevalence was between 50% and 70%. Liberia has a 40% christian population and 20% muslim one. Kenya has 80% christians and 10% muslims. Prevalence of female circumcission here is 38%. Similar statistics prevail in the region. Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:39:28 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45272605 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45270916 >>>Do you mean that the other ahadith are, in the opinion of some, not considered authentic? Or only parts of them are? Muslims are divided into various sects, each differing on their views on authenticity of hadith. I meant that if there is a hadith which an owerwhelming majority believe, it is bukhari(to my knowledge there are two sects within sunni islam who do not believe in any). No hadith is mentioned as false. It is only categorised as weak or strong, sometimes by the author himself. >>>>If I remember correctly, there were more ahadith that say that while male circumcision is mandatory, female circumcision is not mandatory but "preferred." No there is no other hadith on this matter. >>>>Also, note in your original posting you said, "There is nothing in the ahadith about this." I was simply pointing out that this was not true. K. My mistake. PS, i went through a few comments of yours and i found you to be balanced in your opinions(not fuelled by blind hate of islam) and i share your views. Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:17:58 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45270916 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45142873 Sahih Bukhari is the only book of hadith that is considered as being truly authentic. To a certain degree Sahih Muslim also is accepted by many as being truly authentic Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:44:38 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45142873 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45142307 Ok. If you really know your stuff, then you will also know that a little over 200 years after Mohammed died Sunni scholars wrote down six collections of authoritative hadiths, or traditions of what Mohammed said and did. Of the six hadith collections, the third most important was by Abu Dawud. He had 4800 hadiths, of which a few he himself wasnt sure of. He put footnotes to indicate that. A lot more by general consensus of the other 5 hadith collectors have been declared as da'if(weak or not not authentic). This particular hadith is marked as da'if. So, the chief sunni authority, grand mufti of Egypt declared this practise of female circumcission as having nothing to do with Islam. Further, even if true, the hadith says that the prophet asked a woman who was doing it cut lightly so that sex would still be enjoyable for her. No where does it impose the genital cutting as obligatory. I previously stated that it is more of a custom than being of religious significance. There are christians and others in Africa who do it too. Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:36:01 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45142307 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45042950 There is nothing in the ahadith about this. Its funny how people say it is in the quran and ahadith without having any idea about any. Female circumcision is a custom predated by both christianity and Islam Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:30:48 +0000 http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/11/netherlands-ambassadors-appointed-to.html#IDComment45042950