en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/169223 Comments by grmnshphrdess http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment402739929 You are a kick, Kippen! Donuts --- ARRGH!! Everytime I lose a few pounds, my husband brings home a dozen of those donut sort of things that are stuffed with Bavarian cream. No wonder I relate to elephants! I don't agree with everything you said in this latest post, but I can see that you are sincere and your thoughts are not simply an emotional reaction. I am not going to try to talk you out of any of it. I am wary of scientific studies unless I know some background about the researcher, but I will read up on Dr. Poole and Ms. Moss. Since they are apparently widely recognized, I'll bet even I could find out about them on the internet. I appreciate your sending the links. Hope you have a great week! Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:56:00 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment402739929 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment402119213 This is a thoughtful, well researched reply, Kippen, and I appreciate your taking the considerable time it must have required to write it. You have given me a side of this subject I had not seen before. Regarding "animal rights" activists -- I have known many and they have been, without exception, angry and irrational. (You are obviously neither.) I have followed various attempts at animal rights legislation and, in general, I have found them to be written by people who knew nothing about the animal being "saved". Often they are actually harmful to that animal or to others that live in the same habitat. What you have stated, however, strikes me as a sensible and valid concern. The plan of moving all domestic elephants in America to a sanctuary in Tennessee still raises the hair on the back of my neck (that would be the most extreme extrapolation of this discussion), but you have convinced me that our own Seattle elephants have needs that are not being met -- and they need to be by whatever means necessary. Regarding my view of what an animal regards as freedom: I base that on observation of the behavior of various kinds of animals. In my experience, an animal that wants to be FREE in the sense of not being confined will struggle to escape, refuse to eat, or continually pace the enclosure looking for a way out. Whereas a happy, contented animal is at peace with his surroundings and has no interest in leaving. I can think of (and I'm sure you can, too) instances of wild, unconfined animals that happily stayed in one specific location because their needs for food, water, shelter, and companionship were met there. They clearly valued freedom from want over freedom to travel. As with humans, all animal individuals are different and I'm sure you could find exceptions to this, but it has been my general observation. My prevailing thought on animal welfare is that it should be based on an accurate observation of the needs and preferences of the animal rather than attributing human reactions reactions to the animal. An example of that would be the current, terribly fashionable "crates are cruel" campaign. People who push it like to shrill about "How would YOU like to be locked up in crate?!". Obviously, I wouldn't, but I am not a dog. My dogs regard their crates as their places of rest and refuge. They willingly, even eagerly run to them. No crate available? They will seek out a small, confined, crate-like place to sleep -- a place I wouldn't even think about resting in. I'm sure you can think of other examples of animals having a strong desire or need for something that would be repugnant to a human. Again, I appreciate your time and effort in writing this reply because I would not want to be in opposition to something that would bring about good. Meanwhile, I wish you well in fighting the good fight against those Twinkies. My own downfall is chocolate (in any form). Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:55:53 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment402119213 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401874726 I had to come back and add a P.S.: All that being said, I would certainly be delighted to see the elephant enclosure at Woodland Park enlarged. Although I am certain the elephants are not being mistreated, there are always ways to improve their lives and I am 100% in favor of anything to achieve that. Sun, 15 Jul 2012 02:27:59 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401874726 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401860617 That is what the advocates want you to think, Corky. My comment is the result of many, many years of observing so-called animal advocates. I have also studied the so-called animal rights movement extensively. Although there may be some exceptions, the average animal rights advocate does not love animals. What they love is controlling others and forcing them to conform to an agenda. The primary goal of "animal rights" people is to end all animal ownership. They do not want any species saved from extinction by keeping some members of that species in comfortable captivity in zoos. They do not want animals forming strong bonds with humans by partnering together in activities like dogs doing police work, horses working in cattle ranching, herding dogs keeping sheep from harm, etc. They do not want anyone to have the comfort and companionship of a beloved pet. Indeed, one of the goals of "animal rights" is the complete extinction of all companion animals. I have a hard time finding any love in that. On the other hand, for a while, my husband worked at Woodland Park Zoo (in a maintenance capacity, not as an animal keeper). I have known some of the people who keep the elephants. They are people who genuinely love the elephants and would do anything for their welfare. So, when I hear of "advocates" storming about how Woodland Park's elephants should be taken away because they are "mistreated", I know that I am hearing hogwash and my reaction is anger. As far as being "locked up", an animal has a different view of freedom than you or I . To us, freedom might mean being able to travel anywhere, anytime, unhindered. To an animal, freedom from hunger, thirst, loneliness, and fear is more important than freedom to move from one geographic area to another. Zoo elephants (unlike wild elephants) have that freedom. Sun, 15 Jul 2012 01:45:15 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401860617 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/GOP-candidate-in-a-hurry-to-defeat-Sen-Cantwell-162463496.html#IDComment401750502 I have been following Mr. Baumgartner's campaign on facebook. I have to say, I am impressed. He manifests an understanding of local issues and an eagerness to learn more about the lives and needs of Washington residents. Rather than reading my impressions, I encourage you to look at Michael Baumgartner's facebook page and see for yourself. Sat, 14 Jul 2012 20:40:12 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/GOP-candidate-in-a-hurry-to-defeat-Sen-Cantwell-162463496.html#IDComment401750502 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/GOP-candidate-in-a-hurry-to-defeat-Sen-Cantwell-162463496.html#IDComment401748479 Did I miss something? Mr. Baumgartner stated that he is not affiliated with the Tea Party. Sat, 14 Jul 2012 20:34:05 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/GOP-candidate-in-a-hurry-to-defeat-Sen-Cantwell-162463496.html#IDComment401748479 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Trooper-rescues-orphaned-fawn-found-near-its-dead-mother-162390136.html#IDComment401312932 I agree with all the other posters who are cheering for this trooper and his kindness. I also agree that Sarvey Wildlife Rescue is a wonderful place that does excellent work. I know they are always in need of money. If you loved this story and you are happy that people like the folks at Sarvey are doing this kind of thing, consider sending them a donation. I'm sure they would put it to a good use that would make you glad you sent it. Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:33:32 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Trooper-rescues-orphaned-fawn-found-near-its-dead-mother-162390136.html#IDComment401312932 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401310629 Better idea --- send the "advocates" to a suitable enclosure where they will be unable to harass people who love elephants. Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:27:49 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Advocates-file-appeal-to-free-Woodland-Park-Zoo-elephants-162430106.html#IDComment401310629 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Stray-dog-dispute-heads-for-Portland-courtroom-162308236.html#IDComment401297135 Are you in contact with any of the groups that help people get off to a good start with their service dogs? For example, I have heard nothing but good things about Summit Assistance Dogs. Sat, 14 Jul 2012 00:52:47 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Stray-dog-dispute-heads-for-Portland-courtroom-162308236.html#IDComment401297135 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Stray-dog-dispute-heads-for-Portland-courtroom-162308236.html#IDComment401080642 I have disagreed with many of your posts, Local, but I have to give you loud applause for this one. In my opinion, you have stated the true situation clearly and accurately. I believe that it is important that the public be educated as to the actual work and value of service dogs. I think your post makes a great contribution to that effort. Good work! I hope you find the absolute perfect service dog! Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:14:13 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Stray-dog-dispute-heads-for-Portland-courtroom-162308236.html#IDComment401080642 http://burien.komonews.com/news/765351-activists-buriens-experiment-animal-control-has-failed#IDComment400414702 That is true, Joe. But, in any large project, there has to be good leadership or all the volunteers are just milling around in chaos. The woman in charge of this project has no animal control or sheltering experience and is not qualified to be running such an endeavor. Animals going into this system are at risk. Many of the people who are criticizing Burien CARES do volunteer large amounts of time with Regional Animal Services of King County, feral cat rescue, and other animal rescue groups. The opinion of all of those people and myself is that the best solution for the animals involved and the most cost effective solution for Burien is to stop trying to re-invent the wheel with a makeshift animal shelter in Burien and contract for the efficient and compassionate services of RASKC. Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:24:43 +0000 http://burien.komonews.com/news/765351-activists-buriens-experiment-animal-control-has-failed#IDComment400414702 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Activists-say-Buriens-experiment-in-animal-control-has-failed-162151365.html#IDComment400163401 Actually, bravery is not an issue. I don't know about privately run animal shelters, but the Regional Animal Services of King County shelter, because it is run by the county and the cities that pay for it, is subject to public disclosure. ANYONE can request and receive information on costs for any aspect of the shelter operation. What about Burien CARES? I don't think I will go there. There have been a lot of questions and allegations about its operation and I personally don't have enough facts to comment on it. Thu, 12 Jul 2012 03:41:40 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Activists-say-Buriens-experiment-in-animal-control-has-failed-162151365.html#IDComment400163401 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Activists-say-Buriens-experiment-in-animal-control-has-failed-162151365.html#IDComment400162149 This is just a guess, donner, but I think NW may be referring to a local news article that came out last spring about some wild amount of money being spent to care for a rabbit in a shelter in -- I think -- Kirkland. It was a propaganda article designed to cause problems for the Regional Animal Services of King County. The numbers were true, but they weren't. The person who came up with the supposed cost figure took the total amount paid by the city for ALL animal control services --- picking up strays, cruelty investigations, responding to dangerous dog reports, rescuing lost animals, sheltering and re-homing strays, etc. --- and then divided the price for all services by the number of animals in the shelter. The resulting number was, of course, gigantic -- and totally inaccurate since feeding and caring for shelter animals is only a piece of the total sum paid by each city.. However, in NW's post, he refers to "$13,000 per year for one hamster". The first flaw in that is that a hamster would not be in the shelter for a year. Small, cute, easy to care for animals like hamsters are quickly adopted within a few days. The same applies to NW's quote of "$40,000 per year to take care of each animal" -- RASKC finds homes or private rescue groups to take homeless animals in MUCH less than a year per animal. Obviously, nothing RASKC does is costing anybody $40,000 per animal. Sometimes an animal comes into the RASKC shelter sick or severely injured and the vet bills are high, but that DOES NOT come out of the general shelter fund. There is a special fund called the Angel Fund that pays for highly priced special vet care. The money in the Angel Fund comes ONLY from donations made by kind people in King County who want to help lost animals. Thu, 12 Jul 2012 03:38:08 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Activists-say-Buriens-experiment-in-animal-control-has-failed-162151365.html#IDComment400162149 http://burien.komonews.com/news/pets/764968-ewf#IDComment400021660 We're trying to build a non-profit shelter for this community and yet we keep getting slammed with negative PR," George said. Did it make you wonder why this noble effort is "getting slammed with negative PR"? Whoever took these pictures was very kind. The so-called shelter is a crazy, patched together mess. Numerous local residents have written into the B-town Blog and area newspapers about the filthy conditions. It is run by a restaurant owner with no animal care or rescue experience. Within the past 24 hours, another Burien resident wrote to the editor of the B-town Blog about a dangerous dog incident that CARES didn't respond to. What the community WANTS is for the city of Burien to stop horsing around and sign a contract with the Regional Animal Services of King County so our city can have animal control again. Wed, 11 Jul 2012 22:18:57 +0000 http://burien.komonews.com/news/pets/764968-ewf#IDComment400021660 http://greenlake.komonews.com/news/crime/762848-police-called-deal-bunch-clowns-zoo#IDComment394377325 The "other objections" are equivalent to a group of clowns causing a disturbance at the west gate of the zoo. A more appropriate collection of links would be to information on the needs and habits of elephants, articles on the excellent care they receive at Woodland Park Zoo, interviews with WPZ elephant keepers, a history of elephant captivity and how it has evolved to its present level, the lives led by domestic elephants in India and Thailand, the strong possibility of the imminent extinction of wild elephants due to loss of habitat, and other insights into life in the real world. Fight back agains people who hate our elephants. Take your kids to the zoo this week! Mon, 2 Jul 2012 23:30:30 +0000 http://greenlake.komonews.com/news/crime/762848-police-called-deal-bunch-clowns-zoo#IDComment394377325 http://greenlake.komonews.com/news/crime/762848-police-called-deal-bunch-clowns-zoo#IDComment394370380 Since there is no inhumane treatment of elephants at Woodland Park Zoo, it would be nice if they could let the elephants come out and deal with these creeps in their own way. It would be such perfect justice. Mon, 2 Jul 2012 23:23:10 +0000 http://greenlake.komonews.com/news/crime/762848-police-called-deal-bunch-clowns-zoo#IDComment394370380 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattles-plastic-bag-ban-takes-some-by-surprise-161018315.html#IDComment394010278 Or maybe we can learn from their foolish mistakes. Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:22:21 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Seattles-plastic-bag-ban-takes-some-by-surprise-161018315.html#IDComment394010278 http://www.komonews.com/news/national/High-court-upholds-key-part-of-Obama-health-law-160676025.html#IDComment391316481 Proofread your post, bk. You misspelled "repeal". What you meant to say is, "...we can put people to work trying to figure how to REPEAL." Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:24:07 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/news/national/High-court-upholds-key-part-of-Obama-health-law-160676025.html#IDComment391316481 http://www.komonews.com/opinion/kenschram/Ken-Schram-Charter-schools-not-the-answer-159448805.html#IDComment384421071 Thank you! Tue, 19 Jun 2012 04:46:44 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/opinion/kenschram/Ken-Schram-Charter-schools-not-the-answer-159448805.html#IDComment384421071 http://www.komonews.com/opinion/kenschram/Ken-Schram-Charter-schools-not-the-answer-159448805.html#IDComment384229062 Where please, yellowsun? I am eager to sign and I would like to let others know, too. Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:37:13 +0000 http://www.komonews.com/opinion/kenschram/Ken-Schram-Charter-schools-not-the-answer-159448805.html#IDComment384229062