gdp's Comments

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:40:47 +0000

"We didn't kill them. We didn't cut their heads off. We didn't shoot them. We didn't cut them and let them bleed to death. We just did what we were told to soften them up for interrogation, and we were told to do anything short of killing them," - Lynndie England. "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong," - Jonathan Fredman, a lawyer for the CIA's Counterterrorist Center, October 2002, as per the Senate Armed Services Committee report. Fredman says he did not put it quite like that. In order to qualify as illegal torture, physical pain "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death," - a legal memo authorizing abuse of prisoners, approved by president George W. Bush, primarily authored by John Yoo.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:36:55 +0000

George bush in an interview on arba TV after agu gherab: "It's important for people to understand that in a democracy, there will be a full investigation. In other words, we want to know the truth. In our country, when there's an allegation of abuse ... there will be a full investigation, and justice will be delivered. ... It's very important for people and your listeners to understand that in our country, when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we act. And we act in a way in which leaders are willing to discuss it with the media. ... In other words, people want to know the truth. That stands in contrast to dictatorships. A dictator wouldn't be answering questions about this. A dictator wouldn't be saying that the system will be investigated and the world will see the results of the investigation." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5DaY2Uyu64&eu...

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:29:51 +0000

Here is former Speaker Gingrich discussing whether the Khmer Rouge torture technique displayed at the Cambodian museum of torture is against the Geneva Conventions: VAN SUSTEREN: But you said a minute ago that it was torture, waterboarding... GINGRICH: No, I said it's not something we should do. VAN SUSTEREN: OK. Is it torture or not? GINGRICH: I -- I -- I think it's -- I can't tell you. VAN SUSTEREN: Does it violate the Geneva Convention? GINGRICH: I honestly don't know. How many times in human history do you think Newt Gingrich has said "I honestly don't know"?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : "Vocation" vs. "Career"

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:26:55 +0000

hey tickletext. yup your comments were great. and ... well composed. I will attempt to emulate! :))

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : "Vocation" vs. "Career"

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:25:35 +0000

thoroughgoing masculinity... rock hudson cary grant cole porter gary cooper the father on the tv series my three sons. the father on the brady bunch samantha´s husband on bewitched marlon brando these men all had something in common and all were icons of thoroughgoing masculinity. Your comment is interesting in contrast. ;)

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:16:52 +0000

please note that most of my posts drive back to links to the ORIGINAL texts of usa law and us treaty law. these are NOT partisan documents. The logic that the us government has committed war crimes is inescapable. If you think that is justified under the circumstances. fine. the fact still remains. why are we still arguing about this?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:13:14 +0000

for a brief yet exhaustive analysis and listing of all us laws and domestic court decisions on waterboarding, torture and the illegality of officially sanctioned cooerced confessions please see... washington university, st louis law review: http://lawreview.wustl.edu/slip-opinions/waterboa...

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:05:10 +0000

US Legal code section 113c - torture http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sup_01_... geneva convention http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm other treaties: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, ratified in 1992, states that “[n]o one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” The united nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, signed by Reagan, ratified in 1994, provides that each Party shall undertake to prevent orture, and other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture . . . .”

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:55:07 +0000

Pelosi: “We were not — I repeat — were not told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used,” she said. However, that account seemed to be contradicted by a Senate Intelligence Committee timeline that found House leaders were briefed “in the fall of 2002, after the use of interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaida. CIA records indicate that the CIA briefed the chairman and vice chairman of the committee on the interrogation.” Porter Goss: “The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists,” Goss wrote. “I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues.” pelosi is not above the law either. Follow the law, by the book. whereEVER it leads.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:49:30 +0000

the evolution of John McCain: "But we are not asked to judge the President's character flaws. We are asked to judge whether the President, who swore an oath to faithfully execute his office, deliberately subverted--for whatever purpose--the rule of law," - John McCain arguing for the impeachment of Bill Clinton for perjury in a civil suit, February 1999. "Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot," - John McCain, October 2007. "We've got to move on," - John McCain, April 26, 2009, reacting to incontrovertible proof that George W. Bush ordered the waterboarding of a prisoner 183 times, as well as broader treatment that the Red Cross has called "unequivocally torture."

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:44:38 +0000

can you please distill the argument in this paper to it´s essense in your view carl? thanks!

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:42:44 +0000

wow. "These methods ought not to be used at all, but in extreme circumstances, ...they must be available..... " "What we did to the terrorists was not torture .... Response: Advocate repeal of the treaty signed by Reagan because it is too liberal. You argue that breaking the law is ok. I disagree. Article 1. 1. ... torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person ...[to obtain] ...information or a confession,...intimidating or coercing him or a third person, .., with the aquiescense of a public official.... It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. 2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, ...war or a threat or war, ...or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. 3. An order from a superior officer...may not be invoked as a justification of torture. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1079/is_n2... Why are we still debating this?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:18:01 +0000

"There are both Republicans and Democrats (like Pelosi) who will need to be examined in this mess. " AGREED! ergo: this is not a partisan issue. This is about being America. The rule of law. Bring it on.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:07:19 +0000

Treaty law does NOT require anywhere that we turn anyone over to a foreign court. It does absolutely require that an independent judiciary (ie our own courts) do hold trial. question to those here who disagree: why don´t you argue for the USA to remove itself from the treaty Reagan passionately pushed for: the convention against torture?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:50:32 +0000

I say: let´s put our faith in our principles, and trust that if we follow those, even under extreme duress, that the best outcome will happen. maybe not complete safety, but we will preserve freedom and justice. can I suggest that these are higher goods than safety?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:48:32 +0000

i say: if the world could believe that america NEVER tortures, this would remove aid and comfort from the enemy more surely. people would see us as defending justice and truth and them as pursuing destruction and evil. we would beat them. they would find no friends or safe havens.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:45:26 +0000

mary jack: what about those people in 3rd world countries who look to our moral leadership and as a beacon and country that would never torture or hold people for years to rot in prison without a fair trial or day in court? isn´t this what is best about america? we DO air our dirty laundry. we are a nation ruled by law and NOT by men? we correct ourselves where we are wrong? no man is above the law?

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:42:46 +0000

Some things must never be used. ESPECIALLY when they work. Exactly like tolkein´s ring.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:42:01 +0000

I am not at ALL confident that the Obama admin will no longer torture. Bush/Cheney handed him nearly unlimited power. Power intoxicates. It is exactly like Tolkein´s Ring. Some things must NEVER be used. Torture/coerced confession is one of those things.

Cranach: The Blog of Veith : Publicizing torture

Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:34:04 +0000

3 of 3____6) It seems to me that we can cut through alot of BS here.. Alot of constitutional rights are simple until lawyers complicate them: Imagine what Peggy Noonan´s stance would be if it was her son who was incarcerated in a 3rd world country without access to legal counsel or able to communicate with her. when you consider these issues. make it personal. things become clear.____7) what about the argument that this is a partisan witch hunt? I think democratic congressmen (Pelosi, et al) were informed that torture was happening. I think this explains the silence of democratic leaders. They should not escape investigation. This is AMERICA. WE. DO. NOT. TORTURE. PEOPLE. And if we do, our republic is in direct and grave danger.____fox news was eloquent on this point than I could be here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEtFMj6ZiHM&eu...