en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/742347 Comments by ettin http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/12/obama-says-jesus-is-reason-for-season.html#IDComment49181575 A large number of atheists are raised in the cultural surround of the U.S. and continue to practice the holidays of their childhood - without practicing in any way as a Christian, without subscribing to Christian theological assumptions, without so much as lipservice to God or Jesus or the Bible or the Talking Walnut. This is certainly possible and not even difficult to do. I don't know of any essential characteristic of Christmas which makes it nonsensical for (say) atheists to celebrate it. People were practicing Christmas when it was called Saturnalia; is it nonsense for Christians to give presents and make merry around Dec. 25th on account of Saturnalia? I'll certainly grant that Christianity has a pervasive and subtle influence on the culture of the U.S. I find it interesting that Pagan Rome (not to mention modern Judaism and skepticism) also have pervasive and subtle influences on our supposedly Christian country. It belongs to all of us, not just the Christians. And so does our culture as a whole; and (as a case) so does Christmas. Sun, 27 Dec 2009 03:01:48 +0000 http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/12/obama-says-jesus-is-reason-for-season.html#IDComment49181575 http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/12/obama-says-jesus-is-reason-for-season.html#IDComment49133844 Christmas is not a Christian holiday. Christmas is a cultural holiday. It is practiced by most of America, and that includes Deists, Agnostics, Jews, and Atheists as well as Christians from Anglicans to Unitarians. We all participate in U.S. culture, as is natural in a religiously diverse and pluralistic society like our own; and Christmas has such appeal that forms of it are even practiced in such culturally remote places as Japan and China. This has been the status quo for many decades in the United States. As such, the recent rash of angry Christian complaining about the way Christmas is practiced is actually an attack on the status quo. And so, I'm sorry to say, are the President's remarks. Of course the name "Christmas" is a Christian label. However, the thing labeled is not particularly Christian; it actually existed before Christianity, in the form of holidays such as Saturnalia. Many of the pre-Christian features of the holiday have survived, and its modern elaborations are almost never specifically religious. One may be a Christian, and go to a Christ mass; one may be a Christian, and not go to any mass; most celebrators do not go to church at all; and a large number put no stock in church whatsoever. One may put an angel on the tree, but one may also put a star or nothing at all; one may set out a nativity scene, or Santa and the elves, or snowmen, or Winnie-the-Pooh, or all of the above. One may prefer hymns, or carols, or Sinatra, or the silence of a snowy night. Christian practices are not necessary to the celebration of Christmas, and Christmas certainly isn't limited to Christian practices. For Christmas does not rest on any theological premise. Most of the components - many of which date back to the Victorian era or before - have no religious flavor at all: gift exchanges, Santa Claus, jingling bells, mistletoe, cider, stars and snow, trees, candles in windows, the Christmas dinner, charity and goodwill toward men - the list runs on and on. And what actual basis does Christmas have in Christian theology? Christians freely admit it is not the actual birthday of Jesus, and any educated person (Christian or not) knows that existing rituals were co-opted and that much of the world, including many Christians, would not comprehend them. These things do not reflect a slide toward materialism, or indeed any innovation at all. If anything they reflect a cultural reversion or conservatism. They also reflect our common access to and understanding of universals of beauty and good and shared experience. No one has a monopoly on Christmas and no one has the right to forbid it to anybody else. As for the President, my voting will depend on what I think he can accomplish in reality. I would pay attention to his actual record on religious freedom and every other issue of real importance ahead of any merely symbolic issue like this - no matter how much distaste I have for his opinions on, say, Christmas. It's just not as important as the future direction of the U.S. both internally and in its relations with the rest of the world. Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:10:35 +0000 http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/12/obama-says-jesus-is-reason-for-season.html#IDComment49133844