gdp's Comments

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 26

Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:28:10 +0000

Adding a little more here. A lot of this for me is also that my primary social circle for well over a decade has been a specific subset of the autistic self-advocacy community. And there's so much that's unfortunately relevant here -- dehumanization, the effects of long-term compliance training, the periodic fear-mongering that we're likely to snap and kill people (at least in the US after every mass shooting), diagnosis-hiding, people who say "you can't be" if you don't fit utterly nonsensical definitions of autism, the way professionals often try to convince autistic people with no connections to other autistic people to assume a position as 'role models' for the rest of us. That last one is the main reason I react so strongly to Margolotta's "no culture" thing. A lot of 'experts' insist that "autistic community" and "autistic culture" are a contradiction in terms, so impossible it's not even worth arguing. And it's not just one community, and I'm not going to pretend the dynamics aren't an utter mess at times, but it is there. As frustrating as it can be, they're not going to be able to fix the issues in something they can't admit exists. I doubt all of this is intentional, but the book just hits on so much that's familiar to me.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 26

Fri, 9 Aug 2019 02:20:14 +0000

I suspect that in addition to all of that, there are also lifespan issues going on here. The timescale Margolotta changes on is not exactly an ordinary mortal timescale.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 26

Fri, 9 Aug 2019 01:41:13 +0000

If Nutt's autistic traits are unintentional, it's definitely not just you reading too much into things. https://charlemane.tumblr.com/post/129564577740/s... https://kitbeard-blog.tumblr.com/post/8388473124/... The reason I like UA so much is that while the autistic-coding seems pretty clear, it's all a bit messy and ambiguous. It's hard to tell what might be meant to reflect innate autistic traits vs. social inexperience vs. trauma. And that's a lot more relatable characterization to me than autism-onna-stick coding. (It's... complicated for me, because I also have a rare genetic disorder that makes people think I have a contagious illness all the time. I can't tell what's autism and what's having had weird social experiences because of that.) Unfortunately, characters with autistic communication patterns who actually care about people and are sincerely interested in how people work (and are sometimes even socially perceptive!) are... rare in fiction. (Abed from Community is the main exception I know of.) So I really like how Nutt's autistic-coding is done.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 26

Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:12:44 +0000

Probably predictably, given my comments so far, the conversation between Nutt and Lady Margolotta is what makes the book for me. But I also read their relationship differently from Mark and see more than a little colonialism in Margolotta’s remarks. I see this scene as all about reclaiming power and agency. It means more to me with Margolotta taking offense than it would had she apologized. I think there are strong hints that Nutt’s desperation and lack of confidence weren’t entirely accidental side effects, but in part ways to maintain control so he would be more useful for her purposes. There are parallels with how emotional abusers try to keep their victims dependent. It means so much that Nutt is now in a position to redefine the terms of their relationship. I think “Do I have worth?” and “Have I become?” have different significance here. I don’t read them as about validation, exactly — there’s a noticeable absence of emotion in the exchange. Narratively, these questions need closure. By asking them, Nutt cuts off Margolotta’s chance to pass judgment on her terms. (And of course she was going to say 'yes,' but her not saying "Mister Nutt" after his request is also significant here.) And then he continues countering her framing throughout the conversation and leaves on his terms, not having thanked her for what she gave him. (That omission doesn’t seem accidental.) “Is it they who should be sorry?” feels very pointed to me. How complicit was Margolotta with the Empire? “Many bad things were done” in the passive voice? More generally, why is it the descendants of the group with the least choice that categorically need redemption? Is that real progress, or does it reinforce the stories that leave out the men with whips? There’s also a question of whether we’re meant to accept that people who truly have “no history,” “no culture,” and are surrounded by enemies could hide unnoticed for centuries, rather than very quickly forgetting the need to stay hidden and wandering into populated areas. I think it’s possible that when truly "left to themselves," the orcs do have the capacity to find themselves together. The text definitely doesn’t explicitly contradict Margolotta. But I’m not sure we’re meant to take her entirely at her word. She only tells Vetinari that the orcs were made from humans, which makes her intended ‘history’ a little suspect. I’m not convinced that this is a special case where it’s somehow good for a cultural outsider to ‘civilize the savages’ and give them a ‘history’ written entirely by groups that perpetrated and condoned slavery and genocide. “Who would you send to teach the humans?” has some very serious implications beneath the humor. I like that for Nutt, a crucial part of finding himself was leaving Ladyship’s castle and making friends with three working class people. There were lessons he needed to learn from seeing devalued, underprivileged people help each other and intentionally resist cultural expectations. I also like that, for all that other characters try to put him on a pedestal as the exceptional orc, he never seems to quite go along with it. It’s not just that he knows he matters by the end of the book. He knows they all matter.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 25

Mon, 5 Aug 2019 15:02:48 +0000

I think this all makes a lot of sense. But I also wonder…books about philosophy and ethics contradict each other. Without experience in a society, is it possible to make a coherent worldview that way? [Terra Ignota] “Wrubinu jnf envfrq jvgu rirelguvat, nyy cuvybfbcuref, nyy bhe ynathntrf, rdhny npprff gb nyy gur pbagenqvpgbel guvaxvat bs bhe Uvirf naq bs gur cnfg, fb gur znal oryvrsf naavuvyngrq bar nabgure, yrnivat gur pnainf oynax naq ernql.” Gubhtu sbeghangryl Ahgg qvqa'g pbzr njnl jvgu gur pbapyhfvba gung ur'f nabgure havirefr'f Tbq. :-D

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 23

Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:04:35 +0000

[This book] "Znetb nyfb gnhtug Ahgg n ybg; jung yrffbaf jvyy UR xrrc be qvfpneq va yngre lrnef?" Be rira ol gur raq bs gur arkg qnl...

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 22

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:23:53 +0000

Also, Pratchett definitely knew how to redirect reporters and had a reputation for it. (Having a bit of fridge horror here given when Unseen Academicals was written, because I'm sure Pratchett ended up having to do this re: Alzheimer's.) "Terry Pratchett is deceptively easy to interview. He was a journalist for many years and knows the ropes. It will sneak over the interviewer, after a while, that they’re talking about what Terry wants to talk about and have departed from the carefully thought-out questions. He is also skilled at deflecting personal enquiries, keeping Terry Pratchett the ebullient author carefully separated from Terry Pratchett the rather private person." - Stephen Briggs, “Terry Pratchett: The Definitive Interview” (Found at https://noirandchocolate.tumblr.com/post/17568419...

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 22

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:45:29 +0000

Oh, I think the two very detailed answers are totally what he'd do otherwise too! And I did get the sense that he was having fun with those, though partly by screwing with her expectations. But I think he's figured out the effect that his lectures have on other people and knows how to use that by this point. I just also like this as an example of intentionally using really autistic-coded communication patterns to one's advantage, because so often this is treated as only a social weakness.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 22

Mon, 29 Jul 2019 16:55:48 +0000

So, I loved the interview because Nutt basically subverted all of Roz’s expectations about how it would go and left her with nothing she could use. That felt pretty intentional to me. This isn’t just a disability thing, but her initial questions about being an orc feel so much like the self-narrating zoo exhibit questions disabled people get in interviews for human-interest stories. It’s best to learn to dodge them, because if you give any actual answers, they will be twisted to fit the publication’s preferred angle. It won’t be respectful — most often it’s some inspo-porny “overcoming” BS that erases social context and reinforces stereotypes while saying you’ve risen to prove them false (often while heavily implying they used to be true of you too). And in this case, the stereotypes are excuses for murder. Unless Bu-Bubble is actually the equivalent of post-2016 Teen Vogue, trusting them with actual answers probably would have been very unwise.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 21

Fri, 26 Jul 2019 21:12:21 +0000

It did just say "suspiciously like an anagram," so I'm assuming it's inexact.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 21

Fri, 26 Jul 2019 20:07:07 +0000

Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibb[le]r?

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 21

Fri, 26 Jul 2019 18:24:41 +0000

I found a bit of a summary of Habakkuk at http://www.usccb.org/bible/habakkuk/0. "Habakkuk is the only prophet to devote his entire work to the question of the justice of God’s government of the world. In the Bible as a whole, only Job delivers a more pointed challenge to divine rule." I'm not sure why it was specifically a bad-tempered horse named after him, but this fits well with "If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to be his moral superior."

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 21

Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:35:35 +0000

Whatever effect Glenda had on Lady Margolotta, Nutt’s views on her seem to be starting to shift too. His unemotional response to Glenda telling him that Ladyship had been there makes sense to me. He now has experience with Glenda and Trev consistently treating him like a person, even after finding out he’s an orc. He’s learning how real friends behave. All of this was totally foreign to him at the beginning of the book. Running back to Ladyship’s castle would have meant being in a place where people wouldn’t come and kill him. Unfortunately, going by Margolotta’s behavior so far, it’s unlikely she’d even be as comforting as the random strangers from the bus. Glenda, Trev, and Juliet actually went to the trouble of coming after him to help. Lady Margolotta was right there at the station and could easily have come over to talk to him. She didn’t. Despite the motherly persona Margolotta projects, she’s really not a good mother figure. She’s first and foremost a politician. (She's also a Black Ribboner who has replaced blood with an addiction to power and control.) It’s not really possible to make people useful for political ends while also consistently treating them as people. And to the extent that she’s treating Nutt as a useful political tool rather than a person, she’s following the historically accepted order of things. She’s just proving that orcs can be used for good and not just evil. Of course no one would care that this is still treating people as things. And then Glenda did. Given all this, I suspect Nutt is quickly becoming much less interested in talking to Margolotta. His world is bigger now. He’s definitely still in a dangerous position, but he does have options.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 20

Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:30:10 +0000

I'm wondering if orcs were actually created with the intention that they wouldn't be able to fight back against or actively resist the people controlling them.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 20

Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:00:14 +0000

I’ve come across some serious objections to this book on this basis. If I thought Pratchett was endorsing the message that you should have to perform “worth” to be accepted, it would bother me. I don’t think that’s exactly what’s going on, though. “You should leave the world better than you found it” is a recurring message in Discworld, and I think something worth aspiring to. But when Nutt says he was worthless, he’s describing his state at a time when he was trapped in conditions where it was absolutely impossible for him to make that kind of contribution or learn much of anything. The only people it actually makes sense for this to be a judgment on are the people responsible for that. It’s also just not a reasonable way to judge young children under any circumstances. By this definition, everyone is born worthless. I read this as Nutt voicing deeply internalized messages that he has to earn acceptance, which seems like realistic characterization. ETA: The passenger talking about the amazing blind person annoys the hell out of me, but in much the same way as "Sorry, mate, I didn't see you there, what with you being so little." These people are so recognizable.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 16

Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:23:21 +0000

Mark mentioned the possibility briefly in Part 5. I commented a bit more on it there and on the post for Part 8. Totally here to discuss that, though!

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 16

Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:23:00 +0000

TW: ableism, dehumanization Back to disability commentary today. ‘And [Nutt has] been standing here all this time?’ Very keen. Is there a problem, Havelock?’ ‘No, no, not at all,’ said Vetinari. So, I’m autistic and have worked professionally with autism researchers and therapists. I’ve been to a lot of academic and professional conferences on communication disabilities. I’ve spent so much time in the same room, or even the same conversation, as acclaimed ‘experts’ casually speculating on the extent to which people like me are real people with real human thoughts or theorizing about how we can be shaped into real people. Most of my friends have too. We joke that going to conferences is like being a spy. (There’s a good article about what it’s like at https://undark.org/2019/07/11/being-autistic-at-a....) So yeah, this isn’t exactly the same, but it’s certainly Relatable Content. This means that I read this book with an assumption that powerful, highly educated people taking dehumanizing stereotypes for granted doesn’t necessarily imply that they’re right. Approaches to teaching and therapy that imply ‘you have no value except what I give you’ are horrifying. I see echoes of O. Ivar Lovaas, the researcher whose studies led to ABA becoming the recommended therapy for autistic children. “One way to look at the job of helping autistic kids is to see it as a matter of constructing a person. You have the raw materials, but you have to build the person.” To me at least, the book seems to be doing well at depicting how, no matter how well-intentioned or superficially nice you are or how much the person you’re trying to help learns, any method of ‘helping’ people rooted in these assumptions will also do significant harm. It’s also showing that being the Unique Exception is terrifying. You have to be able to stay the Unique Exception, or you go right back to not being a person at all.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 15

Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:25:52 +0000

I didn't think the thing about Juliet not being supposed to know about "tonkers" was about her being a young single woman. Glenda matches that description too. It's more her assumptions of Juliet's childlike innocence. It's also right before the scene where Nutt suggests to Trev that reading poetry might make all of Juliet's clothes fall off. I think that might be more the level of awareness Glenda was expecting. ;-)

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 15

Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:09:45 +0000

Even if other characters in-the-know are wary around Mr. Nutt, their perception of him is changing, and the text makes that very clear. Changing, yes. But one thing I like about this is that when he demonstrates just how perceptive, knowledgeable, and competent he is, that often makes the characters in-the-know more on edge. This isn’t something where he just demonstrates that the stereotypes are wrong and everyone gets over it. People get actively disconcerted by dissonance with their expectations, both in general, and especially about people they want to dismiss as not having thoughts worth taking seriously. This is a theme across multiple character arcs — it’s just that the dissonance with Nutt is most extreme and people's reactions are heightened by the fact that they'd be afraid of him to begin with. But Ridcully’s reaction to Glenda’s advice earlier on was similar in nature: “the expression of intelligent amusement on the face of the dumpy girl had unnerved him; it was as if a chicken had winked.” Glenda has reacted to Juliet in this way too. I just really like how much this comes up in this book.

Mark Reads : Mark Reads 'Unseen Academicals': Part 13

Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:03:33 +0000

I’m hoping Oats named Nutt. Mostly due to the fact that he has to repeatedly note the spelling, but there’s also thematic similarity in their names, and it’s just one letter off from ‘Nitt.’ If Margolotta named him, the choice is more unsettling. The Latin word for ‘nut,’ ‘nux,’ also has a figurative meaning of ‘a thing of no value’ (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nux#Etymology). Given her ‘you are worthless’ comments, yikes.