en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/362987 Comments by beth_r http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17241548 i second this, Pey. I see no intellectual dishonesty in the way you choose to believe and live. i think the way you stick with what you believe and stand up to what you don't, inside and outside the baha'i community, is a remarkable thing and I am completely in your corner. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:19:46 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17241548 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17237614 right. that only comes with the future baha'i states. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:16:26 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17237614 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17237560 wait - the LAW of independent search of after truth? a lot of bahais are in big trouble then... but does that mean in a baha'i state laws will only be suggested? not enforced? will we truly get to decide which laws we believe in? what would be the point of that? i imagine that in these future baha'i states, laws would absolutely be enforced. but which ones? baha'i laws, i imagine. which was my original point. so back to that original point, as an adult child of a bahai in one of these "baha'i states", lets imagine that i am gay. if i want to marry or adopt, i'd have to go to some other country. or what if i want to live with a hetero partner without marrying them - would they send LSA members to my house to harass me, like they do now in the baha'i community? which laws still count in a baha'i state? is this when the financial penalties for sex outside of marraige come in? when a state converts to this new style of government, what would the people who already live there but who are not baha'is do? do they have to leave? if they want to stick with their old laws, do they have to live on a reservation? a baha'i state, regardless of whether or not their are other states to move to if i don't like it, is a TERRIBLE idea. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:14:39 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17237560 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236624 farhan, although it was my understanding when i was a bahai that in the future ALL governments would eventually be "baha'i states", lets say for a moment that you are right. this is the same principle that the baha'i community works from currently - agree with us or get out. i think we agree on this. but as you know also, the community includes children. what are they to do if, as they grow older, they decide the baha'i faith is not for them? leave the country? abandon their families? how will that work? hardly conducive to family unity i'd say. ideas are nice. practical application leaves quite a bit to be desired. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:41:44 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236624 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236317 but THIS analogy, that of the referee, doesn't apply. and it is grossly misleading. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:29:41 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236317 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236254 so how about when the NSA of the US decided to change the health care plan for employees so that it would no longer cover Birth Control? that had a direct effect on employees. and how about when the NSA of Uganda recommended that peaceful LGBT activists be arrested? it is disingenuous to say that bahai administrations, even currently, have no power over the "temporal" nature of humanity just b/c they have no executive branch, when as you so clearly pointed out, the physical and spiritual nature of people are intricately connected. Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:27:14 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236254 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236020 i forgot about that one! no popcorn either, huh? Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:17:41 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17236020 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17197045 it's true - the House of Worship in Wilmette definitely has holy day observances for bahai holy days, as well as other "holy" events. i've been to them myself. i never saw one for any other other religion's holy days. there is upstairs, where they do the holy stuff, and then the basement where they have all kinds of other events - elections, weddings, meetings, tours, et cetera. Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:30:18 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17197045 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17196764 hey sonja - you are the kind of bahai i still love hanging out with. i too believe "the principles" of the bahai faith are a beautiful. i love those shirts - i had one when i was a teenager, and i certainly gave out a lot of those cards. my mom still does. but i wonder, who actually wrote them? im sure it wasn't an institution of the bahai faith but some individual bahai that wrote down what the faith meant to them, and it caught on. it wasn't censured b/c it was close enough, and, well, it sure makes bahai's look good. but if i wore a t-shirt with the quotes about homosexuality being a spiritual illness and gays being "problem people", you can be damn sure i'd be told by the LSA to take it off. but why is it more okay to start a conversation with one of the bahai teachings that it is another? aren't they all "from god"? is "god" as embarassed by the bahai teachings on homosexuality as most baha'is are? how about a t-shirt that says women can't be on the UHJ? or about the not-yet-applicable financial penalties for sex outside of marraige? im curious enough (almost) to have those printed up, just to see what happens. would any of you wear them? Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:22:00 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17196764 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17196099 farhan, you said of the UHJ that "they are guided by God in their COLLECTIVE function and their decisions are to be considered as infallible, just like a referee is to be considered infallible if we want to maintain unity in any activity". this is a bad anology. referees are not considered infallible, we just make a social contract to play by their decisions until the end of the game so that the specific game can move forward. when the particular game is over, the referee can be reprimanded or even fired depending on the circumstances. if they have done considerable harm, potentially they could even be fined or jailed. this is nothing like the UHJ. not only can no action be taken against them, but even *talk * of them being wrong is enough to get the individual questioning them in SERIOUS trouble. i wonder why you used the analogy of a referee? to make the UHJ seem like something we already know and accept as a society? to make them less scary? "it's okay - it's like your kids little league." honestly, id rather have a bunch of little league coaches running my religion, especially if i have the right to question or fire them if they are not acting in the team's best interest. but that's not what the UHJ does is it? it acts in *God's* best interest, who is supposedly acting in *our* best interest. and there is a whole complicated structure around protecting that. in order to make an informed decision about whether or not to accept that structure, shouldn't people know as much about it as possible? would you buy a house without reading the contract? reading the fine print? Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:01:26 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17196099 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17195302 interesting, Farhan. you say "the UHJ only has authority on the spiritual lives of believers, an authority accompanied by no temporal power ". but then when Amanda mentions her uterus (and the uteri of other women) you reply "The guidance of the UHJ does not concern the uterus of persons like you who do not seek their guidance " and go on to say "there is a close interaction between our spiritual and material lives, and again, the spiritual rulings only concern those who seek such advice" do you realize you just contradicted yourself? you said the UHJ have no temporal power, except over people who believe in them. THAT IS HAVING POWER. so were you wrong when you said the UHJ only has spiritual and not temporal power? or were you wrong when you said they only have temporal power over the people who believe in them? it's no wonder people are confused. it seems that bahai's use which ever points suit their point in a particular arguement. whichever point makes the bahai faith look better. when you are talking with non-baha'is in order to convert them (which, lets face it, is what baha'is are usually doing) that is called FALSE ADVERTISING. who are you trying to convince - us or yourself? Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:36:52 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17195302 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17194749 i actually agree with you here, sisi - the bahai community is made up largely of "people from hugely diverse backgrounds trying to learn, learn, learn to live up to the Writings". but the longer they stay and the more actual studying they do, the more they find out that all not well in fairyland. then they too have a choice - keep on trying to make sense of it and come up with excuses of why the nonsensical contradictions are there - or they start trying to talk about it within the community they love so much. that's when they hit the wall... that's when they find out who plays the role of the clergy. LSA members start visiting you to discuss "these troubling issues", and if they can't confuse you back into accepting the contradictions or at least being quiet about them, them the Auxilliary board members start calling and visiting you. if you stubborn enough to keep calling a spade a spade, these meeting phone calls and letters will continue until you are "disenrolled" by the administration or until you quit. and back to this "free choice" - if this were truly encouraged, why then, sisi, are you so frustrated by those of us who decided to leave? aren't we just exercising our god-given free will, just like you? why do you assume we have only read pamphlets, and not actually been on LSAs, or volunteered at the House of Worship, or worked at the National Center for years? why do you assume we haven't been on pilgrimage, or that we don't come from families who have been Baha'is for generations? i believe all we are asking for is a little honesty. the bahai faith is not for everyone. better to find out before you join that after. the funny thing to me is, i believe if all those open-hearted baha'is were actually allowed to discuss freely and make changes at national convention, the bahai community would be a much better place. i love the bahai faith that people think they are members of. i loved the baha'i faith i thought i belonged to for 30 years. i just wish it was real. Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:20:11 +0000 http://bahairants.com/rainn-wilsons-soulpancake-on-oprah-608.html#IDComment17194749