en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/199 Comments by Alex http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/are-we-really-ready-to-move-be.html#IDComment14428042 I understand your point Bryan, as well as those made above - a lot of execs expect ROI numbers and require a number in order to justify the outlay of time and money. I also understand that some great work is being done to determine the calculations at companies like Powered, where I worked in the past, my current employer Pluck and many others. But my key point is that for many, ROI is not the next step, even though they want the numbers to justify or eliminate further efforts. I think the next step for those companies who are "blogging, podcasting, and engaging with customers and community members on social networks like Twitter and Facebook." is to internalize these connections. ROI is important, but until a company has woven social media into all major areas of the business, they won't get accurate numbers as to the potential impact it can have. That reluctant executive won't even know the right questions to ask. Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:15:38 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/are-we-really-ready-to-move-be.html#IDComment14428042 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/are-we-really-ready-to-move-be.html#IDComment14404121 One of the most important aspects that I stress when speaking with people who have implemented social media tools and best practices is for them to step back and examine whether, and how well they have internalized the two-way communication that is the bedrock of these initiatives. Has the feedback penetrated the company beyond Marketing and support? Are people throughout the company involved, directly interacting with customers, taking ideas back to their desks, solving problems with a new perspective and returning to their blog/site/FaceBook/Twitter to continue the discussion? All too often you'll find that they haven't moved beyond 101, though they did everything that a social media "expert" told them needed be done. It's a grand idea to determine the ROI of social media, but I don't agree that it's the next step for those who are ready to go further. It's an understandable desire (or perhaps expectation/requirement depending on the organization) to try to justify the expenses and time spent, but it takes attention away from the work that still needs to be done analyzing successes and failures in order to refine the tools and processes, and as noted above "Rethink, reshape, or abandon what doesn't" work. If a company is using social media tools and practices properly, then its very foundation has or is changed. It embraces a mindset of communication and has woven clients, employees and fans into its core processes. There are not many companies where this is true, and the more established the company the less likely it is that they have dropped their old habits and embraced public dialog with their customers, prospects and even employees. They haven't truly embraced the core principles and they are not ready to move beyond the first lessons. Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:42:44 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/are-we-really-ready-to-move-be.html#IDComment14404121 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039871 "Squishy" is a good way to put it and that squishy area seems to be the hardest problem to solve for as it can be different fro msite to site and article to article. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:45:19 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039871 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039774 A more general thought - a key thing to keep in mind, is the expectation of transparency within a site. No matter which paths you follow in regards to moderation and registration requirements, it's important that your site's community is aware of how the decisions are made and why. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:40:03 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039774 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039167 Yes, I do think its different and I believe that different organizations within each of those sections would and should handle it differently. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:05:04 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039167 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039150 I agree that many comments go off the rails and can be frustrating, but let's keep a couple of things in mind before we seriously think about throwing away anonymous commenting altogether. 1. The worst comments stick out in our minds, and I think lead us to paint all anonymous commenting with that brush. I don't think the amount of bad comments is the issue as much as I believe it is the issue that the extremes are just as visually prominent as the posts in the center. 2. It's very easy for us to want to squash hateful, mean spirited posts. While I agree that attacks have no place in a community discussion, we need to be careful that those people who have an unpopular opinion still have the ability to post safely. Eliminating anonymous posting removes the ability for the minority to speak up and it blinds the site/author/company and community to a dissenting viewpoint. 3. Allowing the community to address the alarming and scary comments makes that community stronger and more vibrant. Every community does need guidance and a watchful eye should be trained on comments to ensure it doesn't go astray, lead by a small group hoping to take over, but we need to be careful about curtailing expression, most especially on MSM sites, which exist to serve a community. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:03:55 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14039150 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037966 I think it's always important to have an editorial level of control in addition to community policing, for exactly those reasons you mention Scott. Plus, it's important to keep in mind that a site's owner or an articles author does indeed have responsibility for that community and an interest in moving it in a good direction. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:59:23 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037966 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037908 Hrrrm, I hadn't thought about it in that manner Chip, thanks for opening up an alternate viewpoint. If newspapers/magazines had unlimited budget and paper, do you think they would print more anonymous letters, assuming they were well written? It causes me to wonder about the breakdown of MSM article comments in regards to the poster's purpose. How much of it is to correct what is perceived to be factually wrong and how much of it is to speak up about a particular viewpoint. I'd like to figure out how that ratio is different for an MSM site versus a print paper or magazine. All that said, at my core, I can't quite subscribe to comments being treated like letters to the editor - it misses the value of opening a site to its audience. The very act of funneling and making editorial decisions (beyond removing obviously abusive posts) weakens the community. Perhaps commenting should be considered a bit closer to a public ombudsman instead of a letter to the editor? Or more likely a combination of both plus the concept of an open town square. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:55:59 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037908 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037383 It looks like I was posting my reply at the same time as y'all were commenting. I agree that the bar to entry should be low for those who drop in. I think there's a definite bonus though in rewarding those who are willing to speak up with their real identity. If someone is invested in the site, and are willing to register in order to gain a bit of status, and perhaps some extra tools (extra weight when the vote something down or report abuse etc). Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:22:58 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037383 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037293 Do you think threaded replies, like those we're using here would improve the likelihood that conversations would occur more often? I think it would, as it makes the conversations and questions easier to follow for both the author and the contributors. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:18:01 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037293 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037097 One other question from the business-side. Feel free to shut me down if this is taking us in a direction you don't want the thread to go. How do you strike a balance between the value of the commentary from your users and the drive of the business to gain ad revenue via page views, which naturally rise with an open commenting system? Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:06:30 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037097 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037043 Which is perfect. :) Require a bit of identity verification for additional capabilities. It seems like a fair trade to me. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:02:55 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037043 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037025 Bryan, I think the very nature of MSM vs. niche site comes own to the involvement of the community. Newspapers are less likely to have devoted followers, except in particular areas (editorials and columns, which aren't all that different from a blog). I think you have to embrace and understand the difference. I'm willing to wager that Slashdot's model will scale well - many, if not most of their posts typically receive hundreds of comments. You don't really need everyone to be invested in the community when you can rely on people being people. When people have the chance to say that a comment is ill informed, or perhaps even "stupid", and they can do it easily, you'll have a significant portion of your community helping. Add other tools, such as the ability to ban or discount the weight of problematic users and you find that the community starts doing some of the heavy lifting. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:02:04 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14037025 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036922 Chip, I think removing the cloak of anonymity may have some of the benefits you describe, but perhaps not as much as you may think, and you may be surprised how quickly people find ways to circumvent identity authority systems. Additionally, that's a bit of a dangerous path - anonymity can be good at points where a contributor is providing something of value at a risk to themselves, whether the risk is to their reputation, career or general livelihood. Something that I do like, is an optional ID verification system as shown on Amazon and a few other sites. Some posters have an additional label ("Real Name", "Verified etc.), which automatically lends them credibility in the eyes of other community members and staff. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:55:39 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036922 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036516 I just noticed that these very comments have a bit of this idea in place already thumbs up/thumbs down). Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:28:30 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036516 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036491 This is a very interesting post, and the problems you noted are widespread, even in blogs of a significant size.That said, I don't think that the options you listed are the right direction to head, for many of the reasons you and other commentors mentioned - the community of a MSM site is varied, much more so than in niche-focused sites and that's a good thing. In fact, it's an advantage to hear those voices who may not fully understand a topic or have a significantly different take. So, with that said, there is obviously a set of problems to solve, but I think you left out one of the key actors on the scene - the makers of your commenting/blogging/CMS systems. As I work for Pluck, one of the larger Social Media platform companies, powering some very large MSM sites, I think we have a certain responsibility to improve the tools available to address the issues. Abuse moderation, which is one of the core issues you mentioned above, is a hard nut to crack for many reasons, but I think we're at the edge of some interesting new methodologies across the industry for dealing with the less desirable elements on a site. We need to do a better job providing tools to each community to allow it to police itself. Many of the same concepts used on small sites would scale well. Slashdot provides tit's users the ability to mark other comments as "Informative", "Funny" etc and to vote a comment up or down. You quickly find that the posts from trolls are literally collapsed by the weight of the community and the uninformed are corrected. There are other methods out there, but at this point my comment is becoming very long, so I'll wrap this up by saying that MSM sites should set the expectations with their vendors, or in-house dev teams that new solutions need to be found that allow a community to participate in every story, without devolving into the ugly side of trolls, racism and the like. Automated systems can only go so far, but you'll often find the most active members of your community have a stake in the game and are willing to help you enforce. With the right tools in place, you'll find that MSM comments aren't worthless, you just need to help the right ones rise to the top of the stack. Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:27:27 +0000 http://www.mediabullseye.com/mb/2009/01/time-to-rethink-comments-on-me.html#IDComment14036491