en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/798761 Comments by TamirYehuda http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82488084 My conclusions? That’s a difficult call as I don’t accept the new testament as an accurate document and as a Jew I utterly reject its’ message. Having said that don’t forget that the rank, tribe or position with any Jew is inherited from his father and in order for the Christian messiah to inherit anything from Joseph he would have had to have been fully physically related to him, which was not apparently the case, as this religion claims that he was impregnated into Mary by a non-sexual act by a deity – thus removing Joseph’s lineage from the picture (and direct lineage from King David with it, which is a mandatory requirement for the messiah). So Jesus was either the god-man that Christian writings claim and was therefore disqualified from being the messiah, or he was born in the conventional manner with Joseph as his regular dad, which would have meant that he was a member of his fathers’ tribe and a direct descendant of King David – but it’s an either/or as these two options are of course mutually exclusive. Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:24:25 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82488084 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82487926 Firstly let me say that I respect the way that you have thought this through quite thoroughly and arrived at your conclusions. Your 2 options seem pretty logical although the Roman Catholic Church has turbo-driven the assertion that Mary was not only a virgin throughout this entire series of events, but was moreover always a virgin and upon her death was returned ‘unopened’. This seems to fly in the face of difficult waters when James is referred to as the brother of Jesus in a non-metaphorical manner. Joseph was (according to the new testament) ‘concerned’ about this girls’ virtue until a dream came to him that everything was hunky dory because god did it. Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:23:43 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82487926 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82487897 My conclusions? That’s a difficult call as I don’t accept the new testament as an accurate document and as a Jew I utterly reject its’ message. Having said that don’t forget that the rank, tribe or position with any Jew is inherited from his father and in order for the Christian messiah to inherit anything from Joseph he would have had to have been fully physically related to him, which was not apparently the case, as this religion claims that he was impregnated into Mary by a non-sexual act by a deity – thus removing Joseph’s lineage from the picture (and direct lineage from King David with it, which is a mandatory requirement for the messiah). So Jesus was either the god-man that Christian writings claim and was therefore disqualified from being the messiah, or he was born in the conventional manner with Joseph as his regular dad, which would have meant that he was a member of his fathers’ tribe and a direct descendant of King David – but it’s an either/or as these two options are of course mutually exclusive. Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:23:19 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82487897 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82483515 Well Bryn I have to admit that you really have a mindset that is not likely to be interrupted by actual historical facts, and the more times you repeat your rhetoric the truer you hope it will become. If you wish to succeed in your stories you would probably be better advised in choosing a subject that you can defend with logic and truth, rather than just spewing your distorted rants of illogical hatred to a world who doesn't need it. It's otherwise probably best to say nothing and risk people thinking you're possibly a hate-filled imbecile, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:46:41 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82483515 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82472293 I think you may be missing the point... not all of us are included in your expression 'ours' and for those of us who have no connection and/or reject the Christian messiah it logically follows that he is not nor ever will be 'our' lord. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:40:11 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82472293 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82471663 ...and from where exactly did you source this conclusion? Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:35:09 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82471663 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82403345 Because Jesus laid no claim to an earthly father he also could not lay any claim to a particular tribe - certainly not from his fathers' side... he most likely was absorbed into his mothers' side or adopted by his step-father Joseph. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:17:33 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82403345 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82402620 The inherant pre-requisite of the messiah is that he MUST be directly descended from King David... In Judaism your authenticity as a Jew is given to you by having a Jewish mother, but your 'rank' or particular inherited 'position' is given to you by your father. Seeing as Mary was reputed to be Jewish, then any son that she would have had would have definately been Jewish... BUT... as the story goes... Joseph was not that actual physical father of the infant because 'g-d did it' so therefore any offspring in this circumstance could never qualify as the messiah even if he walked on the moon. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:14:57 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82402620 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82401390 There are only 12 Tribes and there was never a tribe of that name amongst them - sorry to disappoint. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:08:10 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82401390 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400903 It's a great book - I read it about 20 years ago. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:06:06 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400903 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400819 For clarification I am a Jew and I am humbled and proud to say that we also set up the first entire court and whole legal system in response to the laws that were handed down to us on Mount Sinai. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 17:05:26 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400819 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400026 Well spoken, although unfortunately senility, dementia and old age are not the reasons for Helen Thomas' outburst. She has an over abundance of hatred looking for a venue for venting and though in America she represents an ethnic minority she is nonetheless a virulent bigot against a people who currently number 0.004% of the worlds' population!! Sadly the more often that people like this tell their lies and spread their hatred, the truer and more appropriate they are perceived to become in the eyes of the world media. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:59:16 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82400026 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82398305 Maybe you should take the time to research who this amazing woman actually is and delve into her life story... she has not come to this place by some kind of home-spun philosophy that she read on the back of a cereal package!!! Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:50:07 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82398305 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82397383 I just didn't want to appear too ethnic or isolationist, but for me the Jewish calendar is my most significant reference point, but living in a mixed society one naturally needs reference points that are accepted across the board. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:45:31 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82397383 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396889 ‘BC’ and ‘AD’ are distinctively Christian references as (though allegedly inaccurate by 4 years) a delineation of eras before and after the birth of the Christian messiah, which was only finally settled upon at the famous Christian ‘Council of Nicea’ in Turkey in 325 ‘CE’. These uniquely Christian labels are of course quite relevant and appropriate if you are a Christian, but from a wider world view, which includes people who do not subscribe to that belief system these particular labels range from irrelevant right the way through to completely improper depending on the individual standpoint and philosophy. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:42:12 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396889 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396664 My own belief is in the One G-d who made all creation, but I personally cannot accept the Christian messiah and so therefore for me to use terms other than ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ offends my own belief system. I hope that this information proves useful and you should know that at least in this little corner of the world the terms ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ are used by someone who has many Christian friends who are greatly respected and warmly loved. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:40:51 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396664 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396560 I personally try my very best to respect people from all religions and display sensitivity and respect to belief systems that differ from mine trying always to find what we have in common so that our meeting can always be a positive and enriching experience. The use of ‘BCE’ and ‘CE’ have never been used by me (or those of my peers who have been in my earshot) as any kind of attempt to secularise or give a ‘heartily raised middle finger to Christianity’. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:40:06 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396560 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396385 ‘BC’ and ‘AD’ are distinctively Christian references as (though allegedly inaccurate by 4 years) a delineation of eras before and after the birth of the Christian messiah, which was only finally settled upon at the famous Christian ‘Council of Nicea’ in Turkey in 325 ‘CE’. These uniquely Christian labels are of course quite relevant and appropriate if you are a Christian, but from a wider world view, which includes people who do not subscribe to that belief system these particular labels range from irrelevant right the way through to completely improper depending on the individual standpoint and philosophy. Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:39:02 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/bgabriel/2010/06/10/dear-helen-from-one-american-lebanese-journalist-to-another/#IDComment82396385 http://www.thejidf.org/2009/12/islam-jews-are-apes-and-pigs.html#IDComment57404069 If Jews really are (as the islamists would have us believe) decended from apes and pigs, then why do they claim to share a common ancestor with the Jews, namely Abraham? Would not this therefore automatically place them in the same category of also being decended from apes and pigs? If I shared a common ancestry with people who have had unnatural relations with unfortunate animals, I would keep rather quiet about it!!! Islam needs nobody else's help to denigrate itself, the islamists are already doing a spectacular job!!! Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:49:11 +0000 http://www.thejidf.org/2009/12/islam-jews-are-apes-and-pigs.html#IDComment57404069