But they've had access to all of that before. Their two guns are just a _little_ more killy, and they are little more resilient.

World ending? Doesn't seem like it.

Most of the fire power people seem to be in angst about is either short range or on 1 wound relatively easy to remove expensive models, right?

So, the Wraithknight is pretty solid. Pretty sure we've been facing hard to kill Knights for awhile now.

SS got nerfed, and yet people are finding even new and interesting ways to bitch about GW? Must be Friday.

Seems like a solid Dex. I don't get the hyperbole, but I never do, so nothing has changed there, I guess.

Damn, Panda, I'm +1ing way too many of your comments in this thread.

SAY SOMETHING WE CAN DISAGREE ON ALREADY AN LETS RUN THIS BTICH TO 200 COMMENTS, SHEESH!

We're probably way passed the point of beating this to death but it seems like you are missing the re-roll to wound from the normal Ds in your calculations, you also drop the HDs down to 12 in the second calculations.

It's a fair point about terrain cover saves and the like against the Tyrants. Of course, on the flip side, the Ds will likely be able to save themselves some return fire JSJing out of LOS and range of the HT's movement/firing arcs as well. Looking at the raw firepower traded between the units, though, I feel pretty confident the Ds could hang around and make it a very interesting game.

I have 18 Heavies and 6 normals in the list. Check your math.

18 Heavies throws down 3.4 wounds plus 12 normal Ds add 1.28 (S5 vs T6 with reroll to wounds, yes?) Now, they could start jinking early, but then I could spread out the fire power and they are nerfing their return fire just as much with each jink as they are saving in resiliency.

>> unless they've got 2+ armor saves at the front,

Isn't this the part where you usually tell me that their are ways for mobile shooting like the Destroyers have to get around 2+ armor, not to mention the 18 S9 AP 2 shots....

No, you're right, that is the point of critical discussion. I just think there is at least a slight inconsistency in the way you approach some units and tactics.

Cool. I think it's absurd the way people under value certain units and I'm going to continue to express that opinion. I know I'm certainly not the only way that feels that way.

And if you can't see the gap in unit appraisal here between what AP considers viable or at least worth experimenting with above and what he's approached this unit with I simply don't know what else to tell you.

At the end of the day you are welcome to try the unit it out on your own.

Then don't click on the thread, sunshine.

I don't know, come in turn 2 and shoot the best target of opportunity? It's not like a bunch of S5 shots are meaningless against any of those. You could easily kill 5 to 6 Interceptors on the drop, including the NS's shooting. Depending on how spread out they are that could leave you in a pretty good place.

>> massive point sink

Again, what massive point sink? I'm assuming you had an HQ, a troop, and an NS in your army, right? So I'm talking about retconning your HQ (for what ever purpose he was serving) and turning him into a Cryptek and 5 more Immortals. Depending on your HQ's investment, you might actually be saving points, here.

>> At least I don't start all my crap with claims about my high standards

No, you just come on and start flaming posters you disagree with.

>> You're not even

You're not making arguments. I keep telling you that. You are leaving me nothing to acknowledge.

>> You're jumping on this specific unit because it's not quite as out there as your prior claims as if you hadn't argued for them exactly the same way.

lol, and you're an expert for the way I've argued for units, I guess? Because that's not even remotely true. If I'm talking about something like 5/6 ed FOs or the Mono, I fully acknowledge to context of the argument and the fact they are widely to be considered good. Within that scope I discuss where they do shine, and the unique abilities that bring to the list.

That's completely different then this discussion. This unit is incredibly points efficient.

>> other competent melee units is something you have to be ready for.

Right. You shoot them. Cool. Moving on.

>> army cut short by the points you put into that unit.

Cut short? LOLOLOL. Cut short? You realize I'm actually saving points, here, compared to the vast majority of other HQ solutions being thrown around there, right? AP is suggesting spending 240 points on an HQ. One single unit. For 390 I'm getting a super resilent troop/HQ combo and a flier. Or for 260 I'm getting an HQ with 12 3+/5++ RP 4+ wounds. Is the CCB better in CC? Sure, but that's actually not going to save him against the vast majority of Knights you are so insistent on hinging your entire argument on.

>> that list had 3 Dreadknights

So slightly north of 24 Heavy D shots? Over the two turns before the Immortals deploy I think I could manage that, yeah.

Again, for the last time, take the entire list into consideration.