gdp's Comments

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 09:53:15 +0000

To 3) Then rephrase it as what was obviously meant within the context “ Western secular MORAL tradition” – do you have any feasible argument up your sleeves or do you depend solely on the play with words at it seems? For me it occurs a quite obvious - as you stick to claims which are refuted since millennia, plus the outright denial, ignorance or purposely twisting of scientific and historical facts. Philosophical reasoning like deduction is not yielding new insights – especially not if they are based on totally wrong premises. I am still waiting for your *philosophical* refutation of latest neuroscientific findings about morality, but I am not holding my breath ….

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 09:52:49 +0000

To 2) The ‘golden rule’ is so simple and self evident - not going into details of Kant’s refinement e.g. the categorical imperative here – so it can be ‘plausible affirmed’. Or could you outright deny the golden rule - scientific style – by showing a single example of morality which can NOT be based on the golden rule or some good/moral/altruistic behavior which could NOT BE DONE WITHOUT “transcendent foundation”. Again I remind again about examples of the animal kingdom – do you need a transcendent foundation for altruism in vampire bats, of guilt and shame in all kind of mammals …etc…. ?!?!? And your claim of necessary divine absolute morality, seems for me therefore to stem more from personal incredulity ( I can’t imagine – therefore it can’t be) especially as this absolute divine morality claim was already shot down centuries B.C.E with the Euthyphro dilemma : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 09:52:25 +0000

To 1) : to repeat the old chestnut (sorry !) : extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence : so it’s up to you _XIII_ to provide proof that ONLY a theistic system is able to provide “plausibly ground objective moral values “ It’s NOT UP TO ME to provide the by PROOF OF A NEGATIVE – which is by the way is impossible as your should know as self-proclaimed philosopher.

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:04:50 +0000

You make bold and unsustainable claims, however *Christian morality* finally boils down - whatever pass one might follow - to the teachings as revealed in the Bible as THE basis for Christianity. So claiming that “secular morality” is a copy of *Christian morality* and an illusion, is totally wrong – when : -There is no common agreed *Christian morality* (33,000 sects with different interpretations ….) -The basis of all Christianity e.g. the Bible is self contradicting on lots of topics of moral relevancy -The basis of all Christianity e.g. the Bible is full of disgusting anti moral teachings (hail slavery, kill homosexuals, adulteress, disobedient children, workers on Saturday ….etc…) -The Christian leadership is massively acting greedy and immoral themselves – no divine guidance to be seen here -The “absolute morality” claimed from theist to be resting at a deity was already refuted centuries B.C.E. e.g. before the N.T. (arbitrary just because god demands - versus self-evident ). -Claims of ‘divine inspiration’ as claimed from many religious leaders is unverifiable and contradicts each other -The historical sequence is reversed (secular democracy actually predates Christianity) to the basis of the claim made (secular morality is a copy of Christian morality) -And the argument is made based on wrong facts: “secular Western value systems and democracy” is based on the enlightenment, which was overcoming the Christian dark ages of a divine’ installed and protected’ emperors supported from the clergy.

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 05:28:03 +0000

>>” name me one eastern system of morality that plausibly grounds the objectivity of moral values and duties “<< Well can Christianity “plausible ground the objectivity of moral values” ?!? If you implicitly claim the primacy of Christianity ( as not to put words into your mouth …. but your unsupported statements have some consequences when thought through …..) based on (a) a superior absolute value system or (b) historically predating “western secularism”. Based on the disgusting Bible teachings (a) is shot down and because “Eastern morality systems” predates the earliest Gospel by at least 6 centuries also (b) evaporates into thin air. And a plausible ground or objective morality boils in the end all done - for whatever religious or non-religious value system - to the good old ‘golden rule’ (do not unto others …) which is also not a Christian invention by the way. It can be traced down all over the animal kingdom including proto humans (my earlier point) and ‘tit for tat’ is the optimal mathematically strategy to enforce moral behavior in social context – all independent from Christianity. And another one: secularity and secular democracy can be traced down all the way to ancient Greek – predating Christianity also by centuries – therefore the *Western secular tradition* including morality is NOT AT ALL based on Christianity.

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 02:57:43 +0000

The Christian foundation e.g. as very basis finally the Bible recording the teachings of Christ is hailing slavery – also as reconfirmation in the New Testament. Or take the handling of different opinion in Matt 12:30 …. who is not with me is against me and scatters … Luke 19:27-29 where Christ says : who is not following me is my enemies and I kill him in front of me…. well and I guess as *good Christian* you will hate your entire family and even yourself to be a follower of Christ and take a whip to clean out the money changers from their shops. And I could go on and on …. The Universal declaration of human rights (UDHR) is luckily not at all based on those disgusting Christian *morality* teachings. And outside the Bible the greedy clergy , televangelists and the ilk is not living up to the few communist teachings sprinkled over the Gospel from extinct Ebonite or Stoic/Cynic teachings. So what on earth are you talking about the whole time ?!?

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 02:43:13 +0000

Posts here are limited to a few lines, so not sure where I should begin. First the alleged *very specific* claim that secular morality is *as understood by Westerners* derived from * Christian principles*. Well what is (1) “understood by Westerners* ? or do you mean your personal private interpretation ? which in discussions with theists is usually a moving goal post to evade all arguments. And (2) what are those “Christian principles” – there are 33,000 (some count 38,000) Christian sects all with different interpretations and all claim the absolute truth …. The Bible is highly self contra dictionary and you can cherry pick whatever suit your personal agenda – so which moral teaching to pick ? My first post here just gives a few examples about Christian *morality* like your god Yahweh’s absolute demand to stone adulterers, naughty children (5 times in the Bible !) and homosexuals all to death ! So have you followed this Christian moral advise and killed already a bakla today ? or don’t you follow your own Christian morality ?!?

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sun, 2 Oct 2011 02:29:57 +0000

You want to ‘refute’ arguments from neuroscience made from neuroscientists ? With what ? Bible verses and warm fuzzy feeling ? Even those fuzzy warm feelings can be explained and those explanations are - because scientific - of course supported by evidence not just as play with words. A short Youtube search shows several videos from Sam Harris about his statement that science and secular philosophy have a lot to say about morality – much more than all religions who usually claim the absolute and soley ownership: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sam+h... Same for Patricia Churchland : http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Patri...

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:45:58 +0000

_XII_ claims >>" >>” Also, another problem is that secular morality is illusory. “<< Sam Harris with “the moral landscape” and Patricia Churchland with “Braintrust: what Neuroscience tells us about morality” show clearly, scientifically (e.g. with evidence !!! ) that the one who is illusory about claiming to be the basis and origin of morality are the religious fairy tale myths.

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:43:35 +0000

_XII_ claims >>"'secular morality' ... is by-and-large merely derivative from Christian principles "<< What we usually consider as morality is evident even in the animal kingdom (shame, altruism, a sense of right and wrong) – and caring for the sick is evident by fossil founds dating back to Neanderthals and pre humans for several hundred thousands of years. The sense and preference for right and wrong can be even g\\found in babies before they can be religiously indoctrinated. The much more ‘moral’ and quite concerned about all sentient being based teachings of Hinduism and Buddhism are predating Christianity by several centuries . So if someone is a forger and copycat it’s the authors of the Bible and Christians claiming to be the first ones, but this ad nausea stated Christian claim gets boring as it was refuted thousands of times also here in the FFF Forum.

Filipino Freethinkers : Church Morality vs. Secular Morality: A Matter of Premise

Fri, 30 Sep 2011 02:38:18 +0000

>>" the Church of trying to impose a misogynistic and bigoted moral system straight out of the Middle Ages "<< Sorry to correct you ..... but this Christian *moral guidance* about adultery, homosexuals, naughty kids, praise of slavery etc. as stipulated in Leviticus (naughty children also in Exo21:15, Deut 21:18-21, Matt 15:3-4, Mark 7:10) is dating back to the verbal transmitted Bronze age myths of illiterate goat herders, written down later in Ironage-1 from semi-literate goat herders, and usually re-confirmed during Ironage-2 in the New Testament – way before the Middle ages. Just to repeat the Christian *moral* advise for all those transgression as demanded from Judean fertility god Yahweh is : kill them all ! Severe transgressions like extramarital sex, homosexuality, working on Saturdays, naughty kids disobeying their parents : each punishable by stoning to death. All *moral* advise which the Catholic church is demanding, is finally ALL based on those absolute basic Judo-Christian rules from the Bronze age – a fact which we should never forget when the RCC or other sects are claiming the moral high ground.

Filipino Freethinkers : Bound by Belief: Are Catholics Obliged to Obey?

Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:40:25 +0000

Just came along this article in local German news (www. RP-Online.de ) which is just confirming what I said about Catholics are required to be absolute obedient to the RCC and the pope not to god : Pope Benedict 16 reprimanded the usually Vatican critical Catholic Church of Germany to be ABSOLUTE obedient to the pope („Papst Benedikt XVI. hat die für ihre kritische Haltung gegenüber dem Vatikan charakteristische katholische Kirche in Deutschland zur absoluten Papsttreue aufgerufen“) The Church in Germany will be a blessing for the global Catholic congregation if she stays faithful to the successor of holy St. Peter and the Apostles. („Die Kirche in Deutschland wird für die weltweite katholische Gemeinschaft weiterhin ein Segen sein, wenn sie treu mit den Nachfolgern des heiligen Petrus und der Apostel verbunden bleibt".)

Filipino Freethinkers : Church and State: Why They Can't be Friends

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 05:43:39 +0000

Georg Ratzinger also beat up little Regensburger choirboys himself with the wooden chair leg, not only his priests. Augsburg bishop Walter Mixa (a close buddy of Joseph Ratzinger) punched little girls with his fist in the face yelling “I will destroy your life” , needless to say that W. Mixa took the moral high ground and scorned ‘evil’ homosexuals but having sauna parties with young chaplains himself, he was alcoholic and drunk more wine himself than used for his Eucharist and embezzled church funds for private use – and of course he was one of the most vocal self-proclaimed *moral authorities* of the Catholic church in Germany. And Joseph Ratzinger as archbishop of Munich hired serial child rapist ‘father’ Peter Hullermann from the diocese of Essen to provide shelter from secular prosecution as priest in one of his Munich dioceses, where Hullerman had contact to young boys again. Of course a billion Catholics around the planet are intensively listening to all those “man of god” for moral guidance.

Filipino Freethinkers : Hold Your Horses: On Our Global Women's Progress Report Standing

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 05:11:41 +0000

Of course the executive has to cherry pick the few good highlights for marketing themselves, what else can they do in the most corrupt country in Asia where all the crooks are still in (profitable) business protected and nurtured from the cleptocracy/theocracy they have created with an impotent jurisdiction selling judgments to the highest bidder. >>” Thereaftermatt : I suddenly remember the SONA …”<< You mean the most important topics for the R of P in 2010 (for Malacanang) here as reminder some quotes from the SONA: ““we talk about that new road that was built in Barangay Bagumbayan in Sta. Maria, Laguna….. we also refer to the electricity that now powers light bulbs in Barangay San Marcos in Bunawan, Agusan del Sur “” So we see what is really utmost important for Malacanang – so who the heck cares about a third of the population living below the 1,25 $ a day poverty line, about millions of residents cut off from any health care or pensions, no reproductive control …and so on and on ….

Filipino Freethinkers : Beauty and Belief

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:28:31 +0000

Those kind of faith based separation have caused crusades, a 30 year war wrecking central Europe, civil war in Northern Ireland and Israel, Shiah – Sunni violence plus all the Muslim – Hindu violence in India, Muslim - Christian violence all over the planet, the Holocaust …and so on and on …. So this selfish brainwashed narrow minded lady is as far away from representing the entire world community with all its different races, cultures and believe systems as you can get. And that this beauty contest is hitting the headlines all over the Pinoy media landscape, a 4th placed beauty queen gets invited and honored by the president of the R of P says a lot about priorities in this country ….. Same like some weeks ago when Paris Hilton, a drug addict, regular drunk driving, 3rd rated B-movie actor with a criminal record of served jail sentences – was supposed to meet the president of the R of P for nothing more than being a celebrity party queen.

Filipino Freethinkers : Beauty and Belief

Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:16:10 +0000

Indeed : a narrow minded selfish beauty queen : I am pretty so all guys have to do what I want, even change their religion to please me, an act which she herself of course would never do. And the deeply brainwashed since early childhood repeatedly hammered-in religious indoctrination resulting into this spontaneous answer, is miles away from ‘honesty’ ! About the praise that this answer was knowingly spoiling her chances as trade-in for her ‘honesty’ …. Well …. maybe the answer was given on purpose which in a Catholic Philippine mindset - where parading your religious believe in public - is gaining you the crucial points from Pinoy judges !! Of course on an international stage it will backfire.

Filipino Freethinkers : My Life as a Minority in Asia's Vatican City

Sun, 11 Sep 2011 07:05:32 +0000

>>" that they are not against contraception per se - withdrawal, rhythm method, abstinence, "<< As the withdrawal and shooting the semen into the sand like Onan is an ancient concept, this form of contraception is therefore NOT allowed, when I remember right.... The ancient goat herders had no clue about menstruation rhythm or temperature measurement - so it's not explicit forbidden. And the RCC is allowing it as it's very unsafe and ensures huge population growth and a wast number of poor, uneducated gullible flock to feast for them.

Filipino Freethinkers : My Life as a Minority in Asia's Vatican City

Sun, 11 Sep 2011 05:04:37 +0000

Welcome to the Catholic Republic of the Philippines. Never witnessed the prayer at government offices, but the usual 12:00h prayer in SM shopping malls praising “holy Mary mother of god” and the shopping mall comes nearly to a standstill for a few minutes. So many non-thinking indoctrinated people feel nothing wrong about ‘mother of god”, so then Anna mother of Mary is grandmother of god, and god Yahweh as son is fathered from himself (as father ) to become himself the son, son of his mother who is the mother of himself as father, who created all there is including his own mother …. and so on …. When the Catholics would just read the Bible for themselves rather than listening to priestly falsifications and invented Mary-cults. Deut 32:8 states clearly that ‘The Lord’ (Judean fertility god Yahweh ) is the son of the most high (Godfather Elyon) and assigned only for the land of Jacob (Judea). And it was found on Uraritic tablets that Elyon had 70 sons, Yahweh (The Lord) just one of them. So you can figure out now what this does to the grandfather – father-mother- son relation.

Filipino Freethinkers : What God Has Joined Together

Sat, 3 Sep 2011 01:34:19 +0000

Of course all explanations and play of words are only a rationalization attempt for upholding Catholic dogma. The Catholic dogma states that the marriage is a holy sacrament and eternal, which the priest is bounding on behalf of god. So no more separation possible even if the relation is totally broken just because of this sacrament status. And the Philippines is beside Malta (Vatican doesn’t count as no marriages and families founded there) which have this Catholic dogma included into their secular constitution. So why are Muslims singled out as permitted to divorce for religious reasons but all the various non-Catholic Christian denominations, which allow divorce (beside married priests or female priests … ) are falling under Catholic dogma ??

Filipino Freethinkers : On Humans and Clothing

Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:35:12 +0000

In his book (and BBC film) ‘human instinct’, Robert Winston showed how the sexual attractiveness (of himself) was rated from women in a café totally differently when he arrived in an old car in worn of clothes – compared with arriving in a Rolls-Royce cabriole, wearing designer cloth and a 20,000$ Rolex watch. And humans (especially testosterone soaked males) are preprogrammed from millions of year’s evolution, to look for the other genders sexual body parts. So just wearing ‘adequate’ e.g. neutral staff, including light summer cloth, to ensures the other human we are interacting with is judging us unbiased by clothing and concentrate on the topic. So and now the ‘Slut walk’ comes: ignoring all this basic facts, playing the victim card, judging males by attire all the time themselves – but feminists demand that males MUST suppress all his instincts for “political correctness” sake but only if a women is coming into view. If male don’t manage overcoming it, they are to be enrolled into re-education brainwash camps (like Californian men who dare to seek the service of prostitutes).