en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/6814730 Comments by PhosZoe http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620568412 Your argument then assumes Traditional Orthodox Christianity is bigoted by saying homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage is wrong. This points back to my original arguments that those who feel the need to change Christianity will use the Bible to fit their world view rather than have the Bible and Traditional Christianity change their world view. What the author of this article condemns, she herself has done! Furthermore, if the revelation of Christian thought is so unsure of the truth, the rest of the world looks at the Church and says, Why Bother! In fact, this is why the Church is becoming more secular and less relevant in the American and European brand of Christianity. I know we live in an "All we need is Love" world, but what has passed as tolerance is frequently intolerant and concern is really indifference. Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:23:40 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620568412 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620263061 Pro-slavery supporters twisted the Bible to support slavery and gay marriage supporters twist the Bible to support gay marriage. Both broke from Traditional Christian Orthodoxy and both made the same error with different results. Mother Teresa was only used in my argument because she is Catholic and as such would uphold Traditional Marriage as a Sacrament of the Church. In what way would she not be a bigot under your viewpoint? Tue, 16 Apr 2013 04:09:36 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620263061 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620202105 I sincerely understand your position, but the problem is that marriage is a "union" of man and woman. Notice the wording of the author of this article, "We of Cairn Christian Church affirm the right of two people to express their love in marriage -- no matter their gender." The definition of marriage is now defined as a loving and committed relationship. The sexual aspect has been removed. Whereas in traditional marriage sex is first and foremost in the relationship because it is a union of the most intimate kind that can only take place between male and female with the possible result of children. Marriages are ultimately "consummated" and by definition, homosexual sex does not do that. For this reason government may try to change the definition of marriage, but it cannot change the Nature of marriage. Tue, 16 Apr 2013 02:12:53 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620202105 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620187036 I am sorry you feel that way gun23. I thought you enjoyed and wanted "dialogue". After all, isn't that a point of an "Open and Affirming Congregation"? Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:44:03 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment620187036 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619806976 Arranged marriages point to one thing, the universal law that marriage is between a man and a woman. If cultures arrange this from birth, they recognize procreation as the central aspect of marriage. When the baby is born they can see the baby's race and sex. They cannot see the sexual orientation. This makes sexual orientation less like a racial issue and more like a religious issue where you don't know if the baby will eventually be Hindu or Muslim or Christian. Oh, by the way, I have not quoted any Scripture. Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:27:14 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619806976 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619498362 If I don't make the choice of who people marry, who will? I know the argument in our culture is that people should be able to marry whoever they love. However, this is not a universal paradigm. There are many cultures with arranged marriages. They don't marry the person they love, they love the person they marry. Hmm. I wonder if we will ever have a culture of arranged gay marriages? Imagine, a baby is born and since gender is not important, the parents arrange for her to marry the neighbors girl. One wonders! Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:47:55 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619498362 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619491824 You say "Gay people will wisely choose not to associate with your church." That is simply not true. I am quite aware of gay organizations that seek legitimacy through the Church. They meet, they send out two people to Churches, they infiltrate the congregation and promote their changes to the Tradition. An example of this was at a local Catholic Church where they were welcomed, but once they started preaching their lifestyle, the priest told them that they would have to leave if they continued going against the teachings of the Church. So they went to a Methodist Church and started over. The Methodist Church changed and those that upheld the teaching of the Methodist Church were called bigots. Those that went against the teachings of the Church were called enlightened. And this was not an isolated incident as those two were part of a group that met once a week with at least 25 other gay couples each going out to different churches and congregations. And you say legalizing gay marriage will not have any effect on my Church! Wrong! Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:31:56 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619491824 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619487336 No Bleeth, but now you will be free to dictate to others what you believe. You will use government funding to pressure schools to teach your way of life in sex education classes. If a Christian disagrees they will be forced out of their teaching job. So yes, two gay people getting married does change my world as the Christian view gets marginalized. The vast majority of Christians believe marriage is a sacrament. Government recognition is a secondary thing. But since gay marriage is not a sacrament, those that want gay marriage seek recognition and legitimacy through government, The State. Then they will use the government to force Christian Churches to change. As Jadam12 says above, "Kiss your tax haven goodbye!" Ironically, I would change the government tax policies to be neutral in every way. Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:21:20 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619487336 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619316138 The very nature of what marriage is excludes homosexual unions. Man's law cannot change the laws of Nature. An apple is still an apple even though the law may want to call it an orange. Marriage is not a man-made construct by law. Rather law surrounded what is a marriage, the union of a man and a woman. Marriage is not simply a union of persons. It is the unique union of man and woman. Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:36:21 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619316138 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619313908 KRH, that is the problem, keeping it inside the congregation when we are told to go into the world and preach the gospel. The problem with legalization of gay marriage will be the restrictions of freedom of speech and assembly and even thought. Children taught traditional values will not be allowed to discuss their ideas of marriage because they will be deemed bigoted, hurtful, hateful, and whatever else. The government will start eliminating tax free contributions to organizations they deem out of touch. This is already happening. Those who felt oppressed will become the oppressor. Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:30:59 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619313908 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619197362 I know from her writings that she supported traditional marriage because she said the Holy Family of Mary and Joseph was the example for us all. Furthermore, she is Catholic and Catholic teaching on the Sacrament of marriage has never changed and never will. You are correct about your comments on the Bible, which is why without Tradition you cannot make sense of the Bible. The Faith was alive before there was a Bible. It is always amazing to me by those who argue about "original manuscripts being removed or not included" in attempts to say Traditional Christianity is not the True Christianity because of the prejudices of the past. Just like the Fundamentalists, they desire to find the true Faith through the pages of a book if only they could find the "original manuscripts". Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:57:31 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619197362 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619185584 You are correct that many fall into adultery and marriage is not protected. These are sins as grave as homosexuality. But one does not strengthen marriage by lowering the standard. In the Church that I go to adultery is not accepted nor is divorce. If you are in adultery or divorced then you are out of communion for at least a year and you cannot receive communion. If you are living together outside of marriage, then do not embarrass yourself by approaching the chalice. True Faith is a bedrock of consistency and a guidance toward repentance. Do not confuse Fundamentalism with Christianity! Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:30:59 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619185584 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619150083 You are under the mistaken assumption that Christianity supported slavery when in fact it did not. Yes, many pro-slavery people used the Bible to support their position and they too jettisoned Christian tradition. The author here is doing the same thing as the pro-slavery Bible thumpers of the past. She is under the mistaken assumption that Christianity needs reformed. But at what point do the reforms break communion with the past Saints and what you now have is no longer Christianity but a new religion. Certainly Mother Teresa was not a bigot and she was all inclusive in her love toward all. But she would never have recanted her faith in the Holy Family and Traditional Marriage. She would stand for the bedrock of Christian principles regarding the Sacrament of Marriage. Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:13:14 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment619150083 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment618379834 Boy, is this article appropriately titled "Using the Bible to Fit Your World View"! The author has done just that with her jettison of Christian Tradition! She writes "So if we are going to define marriage as "biblical," which definition are we going by? Who gets to pick? And why are they right?" These questions show the problem with "Sola Scriptura". How ironic that in her pursuit of the truth as part of a liberal denomination she is searching for the right meaning of Scripture just like a fundamentalist but with different conclusions. Separated from Tradition, she "uses the Bible to fit her world view" while simultaneously giving the message to the un-Christian world that it doesn't really matter what you believe as long as you are loving and accepting. With such an unclear message is it any wonder why people would question the importance of Church and the subsequent decline in Church attendance? Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:54:55 +0000 http://www.dailycamera.com/letters/ci_23012398/charisa-hunter-crump-gay-marriage-using-bible-fit#IDComment618379834