en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/774020 Comments by PMckrackin http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64216359 So why does Mr Walker advocate allowing speeds that are equally as likely to cause a crash as the speeds he claims are so unsafe that we must raise the limit up and away from to post at the 85th percentile speed. Mr Walker and I agree that setting the speed limits in the area of the lowest point along the crash incidence curve would generate safety benefits. where we disagree is that I recognize that as speed above that point increases the safety benefits decrease and I conclude that the closer we can keep traffic to that lowest point on the risk curve the greater the safety benefits we will experience. Mr Walker believes in perverting the science and quoting this a way to increase safety so that he can then demand an enforcement grace above that and get an even higher allowable speed to drive. Think about what Mr Walker has told you that he wants to allow. He wants to allow speeds upto and beyond the 95th percentile speed even though he admits that the safest point on the risk curve is at the 85th percentile. WHY? Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:35:11 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64216359 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64215867 Why should any other driver take responsibility for his choice of lane? You refuse to take responsibility for your choice of speed and often ignore the law with respect to how fast you are allowed to proceed on any given roadway. Why should other drivers be held to a higher standard than you are? If you can ignore the law with respect to your choice of speed others acn equally ignore the law with respect to which lane they choose. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:30:46 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64215867 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214933 The problem isn't with the concept of automated enforcement in either example. The problem exists because of the manner in which the vendor for the cameras gets paid. Therefore the GREED that is supposedly witnessed by the implimentation of these automated enforcement techniques is NOT a product of the government but instead a product of the outside contractor trying to maximize his profits. If the ridiculous behavior that Mr Walker asserts(or has witnessed) of drivers slowing down as they pass the camera and then returning to a higher speed afterwards does take place it is NOT evidence, as Mr Walker suggests, that the camera is a poor counter measure but instead proof of consciousness of guilt. Every driver who slows for a speed camera and the returns to a higher speed after he has passed the camera recognizes that his behavior of speeding is unlawful and inappropriate and wishes to avoid taking responsibility for his actions. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:22:45 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214933 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214887 Which brings us to the Speed cameras. The speed cameras are only your financial enemy if you are proceeding unlawfully with respect to the speed limit. Ironically the TRB recognizes speed cameras as a countermeasure, to the behavior of speeding, that works. They go so far as to say it is cost effective to impliment and an effective counter measure to speeding. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:22:18 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214887 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214838 The so called "GRACE" is the yellow light. there are 3 colors on the traffic light for specific reasons RED means someone else has the active RIGHT OF WAY. GREEN means you have the active RIGHT OF WAY. and yellow means that the active RIGHT OF WAY is about to change and that manuevers should be completed so that you are not in violation of the RIGHT OF WAY when it does change. A very common misconception is that the intersection is OK to enter under the yellow light when in fact the yellow light signifies that if you are not within the intersection you should NOT enter and if you are within the intersection you should clear the intersection. Mr Walker likes to say he follows the guidelines of the ITE, TRB and 17 states. The ITE has published within their guidelines that posting a yellow light timed to the speed limit is an acceptable practice since the vehicles that would be adversely effected by this would only be those who are proceeding unlawfully with regards to the speed limit. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:21:59 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214838 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214809 The Red light camera is only financially your enemy if you make it a practice to proceed unlawfully either with respect to the speed limit or the lights themselves. Once the light has turned red the "GRACE" is over. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:21:47 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64214809 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64208097 One wouldn't need to worry about predatory enforcement if one simply followed the guidelines of the law. I have been through Maryland and found that speed limits will change frequently and/or unexpectedly catching drivers off guard. However if your mind is on the task at hand and pay a reasonable amount of attention to the speed limit and other traffic laws ones trip is uneventful with regards to recieving citations. It is the driver's responsibility to drive in a manner compliant with the law. it is ot the laws responsibility to define the driver as compliant.. Funny thing about the lights, If you drive the speed limit, which will prevent speeding tickets as well, the yellow lights are no longer undertimed. If you proceed through an intersection as you are supposed to by using the following rules you won't need to worry about predatory enforcement practices: 1)when the yellow light illuminates you refrain from entering the intersection if you are not already in the intersection or 2)you clear the intersection if you have already entered it. Predatory enforcement practices ONLY target the unlawful and the unattentive. Which means if you proceed lawfully and are alert you will not fall victim to those practices. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:22:14 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64208097 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64141315 You imply here that because a driver can safely, on occassion, drive at 100mph on portions of a roadway that officers should ignore speed violations in that area. even if the 100mph twice what the 85th percentile is? Fri, 26 Mar 2010 04:02:53 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64141315 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64140881 Again you mis attributed my position. Big surprise that a member of the NMA would twist something that I offered to advance their agenda. Fri, 26 Mar 2010 03:58:03 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment64140881 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment61796953 The Question still remains unanswered on why the NMA would have a DRAFT version of a document that existed in 1996 portraying what the ITE's recomendations are. If those recomendations were put into an actual document why then isn't that document part of the NMA website? The answer is that those recomendations did not make it into an official document exactly the way the draft portrays them and the NMA can't rationalize the actual documents contents to support their agenda. Sat, 13 Mar 2010 04:05:19 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment61796953 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59488390 It should be obvious to Mr Walker that allowing unlawful behavior to exist as if it were lawful can have no other result other than more drivers exhibiting it. It is not my intent to change the speed distribution through enforcement . However, not enough enforcement will have negative impact upon compliance(how can you expect a motorist to respect a law that you don't respect enough to enforce?) Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:55:54 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59488390 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59486902 Respect for the law is damaged by allowing speeds greater than those posted on the sign(ironically you support doing this). As respect for the law is lost drivers search for the speed that is allowed by gradually exceeding the posted limit. As individual speeds increase beyond the posted limit the pace, mean and 85th percentile speeds all gradually increase and damage the safety benefits of driving at the posted limit. It is not my intent to change the 85th percentile speed into the100th percentile speed. However I cannot support your attempts to change the 8th percentile into the 50th either. If we follow your methodology that is exactly what will happen. Unlawful behavior needs to be identified and the drivers exhibiting it must be warned that they are acting unlawfully and increasing the crash risk, risk of injury and fatality to every driver who shares the roadway with them. This cannot be accomplished by allowing their unlawful behavior to be treated as if it were lawful. Treating unlawful behavior as if it were lawful can only result in more drivers exhibiting it. If you plan to only take enforcement actions against the top 5% then posting a number that defines 15% as unlawful is a mistake. Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:46:18 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59486902 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59483798 I sa1st of all I said that drivers who exhibit the behavior of exceeding a corrected speed limit "SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS". I did not say that in holding them accountable that they must be santioned or santioned at the same level as those who are well out of the pattern(the crazies and high flyers). So YOUR conclusion would be flawed in that you conclude i would have drivers ticketed for 1,2,3,4mph. Stopping them and warning them that they are exceeding the lawful limit and approaching speeds that degrade safety is just 1 possible enforcement action that does not include ticketing and it allows drivers who are +1, +2, +3 or +4 know that they are in violation of the law and where the law defines them as unlawful instead of just allowing them as if they were being compliant even though they are not. +32 in your example would likely recieve a ticket, the +3 may recieve a ticket or a warning at the officer's discretion and the +1mph would likely recieve only a warning. All three are made aware that their choice of speed was not lawful which may modify their behavior even though they may not have been sanctioned. Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:28:09 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59483798 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59480677 The plan you suggest is a perversion of the science and using YOUR example above on where your suggested method would post shows us that it would allow speeds 3mph greater than the point you told us is where the safety begins to degrade because of speed and 7mph above the point that the president of the NMA tells us is the point where safety begins to degrade as a result of speed. Your method pays lip service to the science and ignores it when you would prefer to do something other than what the science dictates is the safest course of action Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:11:08 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59480677 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59480052 I would expect nothing other than hostility from someone who has been proven to disregard the science he is preaching Safety couldn't possibly be your goal if you would choose to allow speeds 3mph above the point you suggest and 7mph above the point Mr Baxter suggests is where speed is degrading safety. Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:07:27 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59480052 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59479427 On the contrary I "get it" just fine. However my unwillingness to compromise safety for speed makes me the enemy of the NMA even though I support corrected speed limits. I have pointed out using YOUR example how you ignore the very science you preach. Wed, 3 Mar 2010 04:03:40 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59479427 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59477806 I assume that the lower 5mph increment would be better than the higher 5mph increment given that both 5mph increments have similar crash incidence probability(they are approximately the same distance from the 85th percentile speed) because science tells us that the higher 5mph increment is at least twice as likely to result in an injury or fatality at speeds above 37mph(but then this is some of the science Mr Walker and the NMA ignore) Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:55:25 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59477806 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59476819 I probably look for deviousness in your answer because you are constantly mis-stating, misrepresenting and misattributing my statements and my position. Historically you have proven to place your agenda above an honest answer as do ALL NMA members. I did notice that Mr Walker would use the faster segments of that roadway to increase the speed limit an additional 5mph on the entire roadway, even though the average 85th percentile did not support doing that. Like I have said many times the highest possible speed limit that can be rationalized. Scientifically the data supports the solution I gave. So why then would Mr Walker support a speed limit 5mph above that, if he is in favor of setting the limits scientifically? The answer is he only pays lip service to using science and only uses select portions of the science that he can manipulate to support the highest speed limit he can rationalize. He also only pays lip service to safety because if the science is telling us that the greatest safety benefit is to have at a point below that which Mr Walker will allow, he can't possibly be working to maximize safety. Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:49:23 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59476819 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59381946 It is irrational nonsense to agree with Mr Walker as to where the safest place to post the speed limits at? Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:01:18 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59381946 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59381265 I have read the literature! I know that Mr Walker's methodology would result in a system just as arbitrary as the one we have now, because it uses essentially the same approach with the exception that the numbers on the signs would be higher. All those abuses, that you fear in our system currently, would remain with Mr Walker's system. My Methodology would put a distinct line between which behavior is lawful and which behavior is unlawful and punish those who choose to exhibit the unlawful behavior. Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:55:36 +0000 http://blog.motorists.org/the-effect-of-speed-limits-on-actual-travel-speeds/#IDComment59381265