en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/270719 Comments by MAllenP http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/05/05/a-crock-pot-full-of-hypocricy/#IDComment20844615 Thank you for publishing this. It is so encouraging to me to see Christians standing for the unborn. I was first exposed to graphic photos of aborted children when I was just coming to know the Lord in college - and the pictures are what convinced me immediately that "this is wrong." I could not believe that this was taking place in America. It took abortion out of the abstract and confronted me with the reality that children are dying, they are being killed. I can still remember that sinking feeling of sadness that overcame me. I pray that President Obama's visit to Notre Dame will continue to be used to call attention to the silent killing going on in all of our communities, and that because of the attention this tragic invitation to speak is receiving, God will use it to open the eyes of those who aren't truly conscious of what is going on, just as my eyes were opened. Tue, 5 May 2009 23:15:22 +0000 http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/05/05/a-crock-pot-full-of-hypocricy/#IDComment20844615 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251605 This is always what it comes down to with LDS believers. It is basically a form of Gnosticism - secret knowledge revealed only to the initiated. Mormonism cannot be shown to have a standing in archeology or history - so you must have an experience of the hidden knowledge to reveal this transcendent truth. In contrast, Christianity is a very factual religion - you can visit Jerusalem today, there is no debate as to whether the Jewish people of the Bible existed. God established the sacrificial system with the Jewish people and Jesus came to fulfill this system and establish a ruler on the throne of David FOREVER (notice no 1700 year gap in his reign). Jesus was born in a real city still there today - Bethlehem. The creator God of the universe came to earth as a child when Jesus was born. The Holy Spirit came to draw believers to Christ crucified and resurrected. The transcendent experience of God for Christians is very much founded on the work and reality of what God has done in this world - and it can be seen in history. Mormons must accept their beliefs and the Book of Mormon on faith - minus any evidence other than personal experience. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 02:36:40 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12251605 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12185706 Gloria - It is great to hear how God has worked in your life. I pray that individuals in the LDS Church eyes would be opened to the truth of Jesus and God - and seeing someone like yourself on here shows that it does happen. I know that many Mormons when they find out the truth about Joseph Smith and the history of the LDS Chruch they think ALL of Christianity is based on lies and deception - and it just isn't so. There is the truth of Jesus Christ that has been passed on faithfully from generation to generation and He does transform lives. Thank you for sharing your inspiring story! Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:13:07 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12185706 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12185630 As we can see from history, the LDS Church may slowly drop and let die some of the more blasphemous/not socially acceptable teachings such as mere men can become gods and create and rule their own planets and be worshiped by their spirit children. However, they are always preaching works righteousness - that men must work their way to salvation. Salvation by grace through faith in the crucified and resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life. Trying to work your way there shows that you are depending on your own merits to gain a right standing before God and the Bible is clear, this is not the path to the Heavenly Father. I am afraid that even if the Mormon leaders give up more and more of the doctrines that are eons away from Christianity, they will retain this one spiritually deadly doctrine. Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:00:33 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12185630 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174131 I think the doctrine of man becoming a god is on it's way out in the Mormon Church. It is certainly being downplayed and pushed aside, much like polygamy. It is a topic that the Mormon leadership does not want to address (G.B. Hinckley - "I don't know that we teach it.") and their membership does not want to address ( DOF on this blog "I can assure all here that Mormons are not waking up each day trying to become a god. The command to "repent all ye ends of the earth" is sufficient for the day.") Sometime, in the not so distant future, this doctrine will disappear completely from the consciousness of modern day Mormons and vanish quietly down the memory hole where it will live with together with Adam-God, deleted segments of the Temple Rituals, the eternal commandment of polygamy, and the ban on black priesthood. LDS doctrine is forever radically changing. I would not be surprised if in 30 - 40 years the entire system of secret temple rituals was done away with and the temples are opened up for all - the leadership changes that much and that fast. I can't remember exactly where it was, but the LDS church recently quietly removed references to "becoming a god" from one of their manuals for new converts, temple preparation, or something. As this belief fades the necessity for temple rituals will also fade and I think eventually be done away with or radically changed. Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:32:10 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174131 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11890109 DOF - I need clarify one thing from my last post - those who are redeemed are the universal "invisible" Church of God. However, that's not all the story. We also need to be part of the local church - and those can be true or false Churches as well - just like some believers are not wheat but tares, some "churches" are not preaching the gospel (sin and redemption through Christ crucified, not by man or self effort) or they may not be administering the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper - God's special means of grace. Can someone be a true believer and be part of a Church that is not truly following God, or not perfect - absolutely! But everyone should search the scriptures to make sure the faith/teachings of their body of believers is actually preaching and teaching the truth - if not, find a body of believers where the truth is taught. I know people in Church who came to trust in Christ while in a Church that has many false beliefs, God continued to work with them as their eyes were opened by reading the Bible. Sun, 30 Nov 2008 15:44:57 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11890109 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11843159 DOF - The universal Church are those whom God has called and are children of God, accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Christ took my sins and unrighteousness upon Himself on the cross, and clothed me in His righteousness. He paid the price for my sins - a price I don't even have the ability to pay. True followers of Christ have been called Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed, Catholic, etc., etc. Those who are not (or not yet) redeemed have also been and are presently in these communities of believers as well- the wheat and tares growing together. Copies of the Bible existed before the printing press. People would memorize sections of scripture and scripture was used to formulate catechism and teaching. If you look at the Council of Orange referenced on this blog you will see how scripture informed the beliefs and teaching of early Christians - they were not ignorant of the Bible. I have heard some of the songs they would teach, so that people could memorize scripture and learn God's truth well before the printing press. Certainly today in the Western world, we will be accountable to God much more for searching the scriptures and making sure what we are taught is Biblical than they were in ancient times, since we have easy access to the Bible - written and spoken. Fri, 28 Nov 2008 02:30:03 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11843159 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11800177 God did promise in the scriptures that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. And I believe the Church universal, the redeemed of Christ, has been here on earth since Christ established the Church. God revealed His word in time and space, in real places to real people with the intent that it would serve to point people to Christ crucified - that's essentially the whole message and intent of the Bible - God's redemption of man. If God established His Church, and the Bible, it makes sense He would preserve it as He promised. Otherwise why bother? If God did not preserve His word it might as well be immediately consumed in a house fire after being written down - what's the point? Since God is in sovereign control of everything, one would have to question why would He establish His Church only to have it snuffed out before it really began, so He could restore it in upstate New York almost 2 thousand years later with a book about a people never mentioned before in any scripture? It seems odd that the Book of Mormon seems to know about the land of Israel, but the Bible knows nothing of the land of the Nephites and Lamanites. Archeologists know nothing of these people either. Thu, 27 Nov 2008 07:28:14 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11800177 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11798669 I don't get your insistence that Calvin is radically different from the historical Council of Orange presented here. I have read Calvin, now I am familiar with these Canons issued at this council. I see no disagreement between them. Actually, I find them very affirming of one another. Your insistence that there is some bleakness in Calvin's view of man's inability to save himself that is not also affirmed in this early Church council seems completely off base to me. I get the same meaning out of both - it does show that the reformers were getting back to the historical Biblical roots of the Church and salvation through and by Christ alone - with man being completely without hope or ability to save himself apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the Holy Spirit drawing us to God. Calvin is full of hope - hope and joy in Christ, not man. Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:50:15 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11798669 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11760340 Lautensack, Thanks for looking up some of the historical foundation of our faith. It is amazing to basically see the faith of the reformers confirmed by this early Church council. This shows that the reformers were indeed just that, reformers, working to revitalize and "reform" true Christianity and free it from the false doctrines that always creep in. I especially find Canon 3 interesting - "it is grace itself which makes us pray to God." This confirms even more that the gospel centered on the redemptive power of God through Christ that the reformers preached was a truth that has been understood throughout the history of the Church. Man being a child of wrath and rebellion (NOT a child of God by nature) has been clearly understood by believers since Christ died and rose and the gospel was first proclaimed. God in his mercy has reached down and saved unworthy sinners and made us joint heirs with Christ, adopted sons and daughters. Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:51:24 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11760340 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11752390 SteveH, I am persuaded that God has kept the Bible free from doctrinal corruption. We have many existing ancient copies from different sources and the discrepancies between the various copies come down to a few words out of hundreds of thousands. None affects any major Christian doctrine. It's easy to say "it's been corrupted" without paying attention to the overwhelming evidence that supports Biblical authenticity. You are right, there is much falsehood that goes on in the name of Christ, just as Jesus told us it would be. Jesus said there would be wheat and tares, saved and unsaved in the Church (universal). Today we see Churches that deny the truth of the gospel of Christ crucified, and those that hold fast to the truth - just as Christ told us it would be. Those who deny the centrality of Jesus death and resurrection are actually a fulfillment of the words of Christ. Those who do not hold fast to the truth twist and turn to deny the plain truth of the Bible, pulling verses out of context, denying the reliability of the Bible, and distorting what God has plainly revealed. On another note, Joseph Smith in seeking to establish a new religion did not establish just one - but countless splinter groups all claiming to bear the truth of Joseph Smith. The "sharp clarity" brought about by "the prophet" was apparently not so clear to many after he died, and still many more today who claim to follow Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. There are a multiplicity of "prophets" interpreting "prophets" and coming to different conclusions. When your faith is based on the word of one man and not the Word of God you can be lead in any direction and into multiple contradictions - present revelation undoing past revelation and denying what is plainly revealed in scripture. God's word is not complicated, nor has it been corrupted. God has given us everything we need in Christ for a right relationship with Him. Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:45:33 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11752390 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11708141 SteveH You stated above "theologians who can only misconstrue the words of dead prophets." I have not found this to be true. Theologians can misconstrue, or they can elucidate the plain meaning of the text. God has revealed Himself in scripture in a clear manner that can be understood by anyone without the interpretation of theologians or prophets. Theologians who love God and proclaim the truth of Christ can help expound on the meaning of the Bible being all about the Messiah Jesus and his redemption of man through His crucifixion and resurrection. Prophets spoke forth the truth of God's plan in plain language - if prophets need prophets to interpret prophets, where does it end? It will become a string of interpretations contradicting one another and changing over time. This is the clear pattern of the "latter day prophets" - always interpreting, always changing, never firm or clear. God has spoken to prophets, the Bible was recorded in plain language easily understood pointing us to Christ crucified. In the context of the Bible, the plain meaning of the scripture quoted here is that we become children of God when we come to God through Christ's redemptive sacrifice - we are adopted as God's children through Christ. Children of wrath, children of the devil become a new creation and children of God the Father. I am a child of wrath by nature, and now, a child of God by divine intervention through Christ. I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ by God's grace and Christ has taken my sin and depravity upon Himself. I cannot think of a more glorious or wonderful gift. - God's unmerited favor for a depraved sinner like me. Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:37:37 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/11/do-we-need-to-become-children-of-god/#IDComment11708141