en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/310669 Comments by Ken_Zevo http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027237.php#IDComment30666034 “I think that any religion that demands earthly vengeance and retribution, for any reason, is not really a religion at all, but an illness - and should be treated as such.” Pat Condell (on YouTube.com) 'Nuff said? Thu, 13 Aug 2009 16:39:41 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027237.php#IDComment30666034 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment29218821 Ok, thx, much appreciated. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I have been avoiding the comments section (and Jihad Watch, in general) since my recent keel-hauling by a small minority of Jihad Watch misunderstanders and extremists. I find the best way to punish them is to ignore them, and go to other websites where people are more civilized to each other. Best wishes in the future! Hope to see you again soon (preferably on some other website, though.) Ken Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:31:07 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment29218821 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24596722 You've phrased that very nicely, and I agree completely. As others have said (and proved) far better than me, on average the Judeo-Christian-faith-based countries are doing WAY better on quality-of-living (and pumping out WAY more technology) than the rest of the world combined. We must be doing something right, since everyone else seems to be falling all over themselves to immigrate here, whenever the opportunity arises. Thx for the reply, I liked the way you summed it all up & put a bow on the thought. I can't think of anything more to add. Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:02:14 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24596722 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24412636 You make an interesting counter-argument, "Separation of church and state gives us our current situation that we now have in the USA. " Could you please expand some more upon it? Specifically, can you say more about "the destruction of millions of innocent people among us". I am not sure what you mean, exactly. What people, where in America, and how are their lives being destroyed? I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing; I am just a bit confused who exactly you are refering to, and would appreciate more info, please, to help clear this up. As for "despicable murderers live out their lives behind bars rather than being hung as they should. ", I feel much the same way, but with some minor reservations (which have nothing to do with the point you are making, so I'll keep them to myself, for now.) As for the "hand of God" showing us absolute moral values, well ... I just got out of one fecal hurricane with someone who took offense from some of my views as an atheist, so I don't think I even want to go there - I'm still suffering from 3rd degree burns of the soul. I will, however, completely agree that Americans could use some seriously better core moral values than the ones I see being practiced today. The massive, country-wide orgy of lies, cheating, greed, false pride, and shady business practices that came together to cause the mortgage meltdown proves that in spades. "... we stray farther and farther from true truth.", well, no argument there. And the truth has a way of catching up with us (usually with compound interest), sooner or later, whenever we do. Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:12:00 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24412636 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026560.php#IDComment24405894 To Rose Warren; I apologize, in advance, for the off-topic comment I am about to make; but, I am a new-comer to this site, and I don't know any other way of sending a message to you, and I felt time was important. So hear goes : Short version : I was wrong, wrong, wrong about you, and I owe you a very very very long, sincere, and public apology. I recently (a few days ago) jumped to conclusions about you and accused you of being a cyber-bully (among other things), all of which turned out to be completely mistaken, now that I have been able to gather more information. I want to very publicly retract 100% of the accusations I made about you, and ask humbly for your forgiveness, if you can find it in your heart to forgive me, after I am done retracting and apologizing. If you are willing to listen, I can & will give a fuller explanation of what happened, but those are the important points. I was 100% completely wrong about you, I greatly regret jumping to conclusions about you, and I wish to make whatever public amends or apologies that I can, to show that I am truely sorry for the gaping lapse in judgement I have made, and my poor behavior towards you in general. Just say the word, and I will fill in all the details. Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:25:14 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026560.php#IDComment24405894 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24287167 I'd like to see some evidence - this sounds suspisciously like a false comparison, i.e. "comparing apples & oranges". How many Turks were captured, compared to Americans? If there was only one Turk, and he survived, then it doesn't prove much. (I am exaggerating, to make a point, please don't flame me for it.) I am not saying you are wrong, I just want you to prove what you claim, please. A hyperlink to an authoritative source on the Korean War would be nice, Adheeb, if you can provide one (or more.) Otherwise, I find it hard to take your claim (that no captured Turks died in captivity during the Korean War) seriously - it flies in the face of common sense. Turks have a reputation for toughness, but they are not invulnerable. Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:47:14 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24287167 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24284618 The part you have highlighted (in caps) just plays the religion card again - and seperation of church & state should (in theory) trump that. Religious superstition is no excuse to deny others of their rights, in any modern society - regardless of the religion or the society. The fact that a handicapped person was involved just makes it that much worse. Muslims need to move into the 21st century, and start tempering their religious mythology with some common sense and respect for others less fortunate, regardless of whether the Muslims are the minority or not. [I know - that would be apostacy, and punishable by death - not going to go there. Others have already done it far better than I could.] Denying a blind person the services of a fully-trained guide animal on religious grounds is cruel, heartless, and just plain wrong - morally, as well as legally - regardless of the number of Muslims living in the country. It's a hell of a lot easier for the Muslims to get off the bus - if they truly fear the loss of their divine protection from harm - than for a blind person to travel in safety in a sighted world, without the help of a guide animal, day-in and day-out. They'd have to be blind not to see that ... or operating on blind faith. So I agree whole-heartedly with you, Awakened - but for different reasons. P.S. What about guide monkeys, or house cats, or tigers? (A tiger would make the Muslims think twice before complaining or getting hysterical, lol.) Would that be halal or haram? Maybe there is a third alternative, while we are waiting for sanity to prevail over superstition. I imagine there must be animals smaller than a horse that can be trained. Any one? Of course, a Muslim charity should pay for the (halal) guide animal, and the training. It's a small price for the Muslims to pay, in order to get their divine protectors back on the bus with them. The blind man would get a free guide animal, which makes this a win-win situation. Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:11:06 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24284618 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24280935 Thank you - both of you - for making these points clear (even if it did take several visits to the dictionary and thesaurus for me to follow some of it.) I find your give-and-take analysis unusually well-thought through, and it was an inspriation to read both sides. I have to side with Hesperado, though. Survival HAS to be the #1 priority. Any person, group of people, or meme that does not survive can not replicate into the next generation, and is lost (at least until someone re-invents the wheel, in the case of the meme.) I would hope that people will try to deal with Muslims as human beings, (as Dumbledoorsarmy suggests, if I read your writing correctly), wherever possible to do so without sacrificing safety (as Herperado suggests, if I read that correctly as well), and that the West tries to redeem as many Muslims as are capable and worthy of redemption. A human life is a terrible thing to waste. Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:55:15 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24280935 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24278756 You are right that most laws ORIGINATE from religion (i.e. shared religious beliefs), but they get their ultimate legitimacy (legal staying power) from logic and precedent, in deveoped countries. That is why we in America (and Jews in Israel) do not stone adulterors to death, even tho the religious obligation is clearly laid out in the Old Testament. It would go against logic (we forbid cruel and unusual punishment) and precedent (Jesus saying, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone", which abrogated/cancelled out stoning for adultury in the New Testament.) Laws that are not backed up by logic or previous experience (of being useful) rarely last more than one generation in the developed world (if that long.) That is why stonings have fallen by the wayside in developed countries. We recognize that it's better for everyone if the persons concerned get marriage councilling, or a divorce, than a swarm of big freakin' rocks, regardless of what the Old or New Testaments have to say about it. This is also one of the major differences between the Western world, and the Muslim world. We know when to put a leash on our sacred relgious beliefs, and do not follow them blindly. Q.E.D. (quad erat demonstratum, "[that] which was to be demonstrated"), logic & precedence give legitimacy to laws in the developed world, not religion (or mythology, depending on your point of view.) Seperation of church & state ROCKS! Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:25:31 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026534.php#IDComment24278756 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24273733 Speaking of which, I don't suppose you'd care to delete some (or even all) of the profanity-laced replies you have been making, insulting my character, my honor, and my manhood? That would be a good first step towards proving you really are the decent human being that others have told me about. Actions speak louder than words; or, as Jesus once said, "you shall know them [good people] by their fruit [deeds]." Good men fight fair, and don't descend to profanity and mudslinging as a first resort. Those replies certainly do not paint a very honorable picture of you, for future readers to see. It would be a good thing for your reputation, if you send the worst of them off to the bit bucket. Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:56:04 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24273733 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24239101 FYI : I was a soldier with the 7th Infantry Division (Fort Ord, CA) for 18 months (1983-1984). The 7th is known as "The Bayonet Division" because they aren't afraid to get up close & personal. I took both the hand-to-hand training course, and the bayonet training, while I was there. I might surprise you, if I ever have to go toe to toe with a jihadi. Contrary to some opinions, I am no creampuff. I also served a year in Germany (1985) during the height of the Cold War, with the 2nd Armor Division (FWD), only an hour or so from the Iron Curtain (as the tank flies), fully expecting the Russians to come along at any given hour of the day or night since we were one of the first units in Europe to get the brand new (then) M-1 tanks. I may have only been a radio-person, but I've done my time on the razor's edge, and proved I am no whimp. Just so you know. End of story. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:33:17 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24239101 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24232754 Any port in a storm. Deal. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:49:00 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24232754 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24229614 Well, that's fine, if the person won't listen to reason. If you read my replies, I have happily changed my mind (and, where needed, apologized for my previous stand) when given facts that proved me wrong. That was not enough for you, so I don't see how these two situations can be compared as equal. I listened to reason - and you continued your attack on me anyway, even after I'd gotten on board with your side of the argument. If someone is an Islamic apologist, wouldn't it make more sense to expose him/her as such to a new-comer (like me), with links to the previous debate(s) that show you've been down that road before clearly, rather then to make personal attacks on the people who are already on your side, and turning them into enemies? I don't see how making enemies of people like me helps your cause. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:09:47 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24229614 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24228697 I am not much of a sports fan, but I am a reasonable person, when allowed to be. Deal. BTW, I did not want to bring this up earlier, since it is not part of the discussion (and I felt sure you'd only use it to further humiliate me), but I am an adult survivor of some pretty aweful childhood abuse - years of it, and I still have the scars to prove it, both in my soul and on my wrists. You might want to think about that - just for a second - before you lash out at me ... or anyone else. On the bright side, I think you've saved me about 5 years in therapy, by bringing a BUNCH of childhood abuse memories to the surface, where I could deal with them & get some closure. I'll take whatever small victories the world is willing to send my way. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:58:28 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24228697 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24227732 I only play rough and tumble to prove a point, and then only if the point is important enough to be worth proving inspite of the bruises and broken bones I may get in the process. I don't play rough and tumble just for the fun of it. No deal. Counter-offer : if I bring up my childhood - or anything else - that has nothing to do with the other comments being made, you can point that out to me. If you can show good reason why I am off-topic, and I don't immediately stop, THEN you are welcome to jump on me with both feet. Until then, though, you show me the same common courtesy as the rest of the posters. Deal? Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:43:16 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24227732 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24224909 Of course you want me to hang around - to be your private punching bag. Is there any reason to believe you won't come after me again, and hound me with personal attacks, regardless of what apologies I make, what changes of belief I make, or what facts I present? Re-read this thread - NOTHING that I did to try to make peace was enough to satisfy you (except complete submission ... hmmm, why does THAT sound familiar?) It looks to me, from your replies so far, like you will continue attacking me personally whatever I say, and whatever stand I take. If you are going to keep coming at me, just for the sport of it, I am pretty comprehensively screwed and might as well throw in the towel now. I believe in the principles that this website represents. I just don't see how I can participate if you are determined to make my life miserable for personal reasons, rather than proving me wrong with facts and evidence.. The center pivot of your "argument" is that I am a "whiner", and you hate whiners. As long as you are the one defining what a "whiner" is, you will ALWAYS be right, and I will ALWAYS be wrong - all you have to do is keep moving the goalposts to reflect your standards, whatever you choose to make ithem. (Hmmm ... where have I heard THAT before, too?) So I don't see any way to win this, since nothing short of my complete submission and humiliation is enough to satisfy you. Feel free to prove me wrong (with facts, that is.) I would like to contribute - but not if it means I have to have you riding me every time I do, just because you dislike me personally. If we can't agree to disagree without it turning personal, when we disagree, then what CAN we agree on? Ball is in your court now. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:59:06 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24224909 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24215638 Congradulations, Undaunted, you win! You don't win fair ... but you win. Funny thing, a site for denoucing Islamic intolerance and blind hatred that will not denounce the intolerance and blind hatred within it's own ranks. So be it. If people like Undaunted have free rein here, then this is no place for me. I'll stick to reading the news, and stay out of the comments. Any information I might have to add would just provide anther opportunity for abuse from this site's pet cyber-bullies. Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:32:04 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24215638 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24096248 There's no point in me sticking around, if I am going to be the designated whipping boy for Undaunted and his ilk. I have tried to make peace with him, repeatedly, and gotten nothing but more abuse for my efforts. Further peacemaking attempts would be pointless. "Never wrestle with a pig; you'll both get covered in mud, and the pig will love it." Undaunted revels in discord and chaos. Such people are a pebble in the shoe - the sooner I am rid of them, the better. They contribute nothing. Toodles. P.S. No need to reply, I will not be reading this thread further, since Undaunted is seeing fit to spam it. Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:07:55 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24096248 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24004871 I am trying to find common cause, yes, but character assassins like Undaunted certainly do NOT inspire me to your side of the discussion, with their bullying and personal attacks. I wish he could take a page from Robert Spencer's playbook, and stick to the facts. I don't think Robert would approve of Undaunted's terror tactics and schoolyard behavior. Btw, I notice that you are skillfully dodging all the pointed questions I have asked so far. Why? Are you are afraid that you will be the next target, if you agree with me that Undaunted's abuse was unprovoked and unnecessary? Your silence is hard for me to understand. Do you think his attacks were, in any way, justified? If so, why? If not, why are you unwilling to take a stand with me and denounce his behavior? If this sort of childish behavior is freely tolerated, I do not think I'll be sticking around too long. I do not let people abuse me like this without cause - it's bad for the soul. I respect myself more than that. I also won't make common cause with those who spread hatred for it's own sake. I came to this site to oppose such people, not join them ... and that seems to be all I see from such as Undaunted and Rose Warren, so far. If they are good people, I have yet to see it. All I have seen so far is unprovoked hatred, bigotry, and bullying from those two and their buddies, both against me personally and against anyone that does not join in their terror tactics and hate-fests generally. Maybe they show a different side to you. If so, I hope they eat you last. Fri, 12 Jun 2009 05:15:07 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment24004871 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment23999526 Ok, thx for the feedback, and the advice. I still don't know what I did to "provoke" him - seems to me, IMAO, that he attacked me without cause, which makes me the provokee, not the provoker. All I did was ask people to be nice with each other, and not be rude. That is simple common courtesy, where I come from. I'll take it on your authority that Undaunted has redeeming qualities that I have not seen yet (mostly because he does nothing but flame me), and try to give him the benefit of the doubt in the future. So far, he seems more like a schoolyard bully than a "formidable intellect" - how much thought does it take to call me names and insult me? That doesn't seem very smart - just the opposite. If he were smart, he would convince he to his side of the argument with facts, not drive me away with abuse. Why do decent posters like you tolerate such childish behavior? I am surprised that there is not more attempts at self-policing of people that are adding nothing to the discussion by serving up a heaping helping of verbal abuse. They are a pebble in the shoe - they make it just that much harder to do what must be done, until they are removed. As for the Hail Marys ... I wouldn't hold your breathe, lol. Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:28:32 +0000 http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026539.php#IDComment23999526