Well, to a large extent Swedish culture, science etc. is coloured by the US, and people often have a rather relaxed every day relation to the US. On the other side, there are some things that are more than a little extreme over there in the US. For that reason, many people occasionally associate the US with negative politics, guns, death, deploring attitudes, religious fundamentalists, extreme right-wingers, inequality, supremacy, etc., even if they mostly have a rather cosy and rather superficial everyday contact with American culture.

I would also like to comment another thing. Reading soap box comments (especially in JP and worse places) and comments by Israeli officials, one could easily get a probably wrong impression of both Jews and Israelis. One could come to believe that most, in both these groups, bashed out on the Nordic Countries, among others, without any reasonable proportions, any wish to be balanced, or any ambitions to tell the true story. However, what view would you get of people in the Nordic Countries if you could follow some soap box columns to some in themselves rather respectable Nordic newspapers or listen to MPs from the Danish Peoples Party, the Sweden Democrats, the (Norwegian) Progress Party, or the True Finns.

So you have them too, I guess all religions and other large groups have them. The sad thing is that they sometimes gently push close and far people away, whatever they actually try to do.

Or maybe, it is more conflict, which is or has been, that is speaking. Do however not worry about my comment, I am just a temporary visitor, who by chance pass by some peripheral connections and alien things. Now, I will however narrow the circles again. Still, the closer circles, apart from people, span more than I can reach in ten years.

You do not annoy me at all, but Christians who try to force secular and liberal Christians to take part in religious Christmases do irritate me, and occasionally I make a few of them furious due to my lacking nationalism or was it religiosity (they so easily get confused by some). Most of the time, however, everyone can do whatever they feel suits them in relation to religion, and no one has any opinion about it. So why should a secular or religious 'Christian' bother whether a Jew works during Christmas, has a secular Christmas or even takes part in a Christian Christmas. The Christian, that is me (even if I do not believe more in Christ than in Shamanism), should rather bother about what he or she does him- or herself. (I wish this was Finnish, because there both he and she is 'hän'.)

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However, I perceive that you, New York Jews (?), struggle with another 'problem'. Maybe the question is whether a rather liberal or even secular Jew could celebrate a secular non-religious Christmas, even if the holiday is somewhat associated with pagan pigs and Christian Jesus. Well, it would maybe be the same as if I, a European, could celebrate the 4th of July, if I happened to be, or live, in the US at this date. (Not that I personally like National days, since they are somewhat political, and somewhat opposes all the other levels and overlapping structures of nationality.)

I could however add, that there were two Muslim girls, in moderate Muslim clothing, that took part at the (voluntary) pre-Christmas ending at work. I also suppose that non-Jewish Europeans going to Israel, would occasionally end up at a Jewish holiday party.

PS! The name of Christmas in Scandinavian and Finnish is related to the English Yule, so the name is not very Christian to us, unless we speak English. Of course, this comment is not very valid to a New Yorker ;). Happy Yule or rather Glad Yule!

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The celebration existed already before the Christians took it over, so it would probably had been Christmas even without the idea of the birth of a (Christian) Messiah. It would of course have had another name and other customs, but society in general would most likely have been quite different without the long rule of Christianity.

That said, it is not a very religious holiday to many Christians, even if it is very religious to others. Furthermore, it is to a large extent a holiday following rather recent traditions, blended with some old and often pre-Christian traditions.

To many where I live, which is not religious America, church, and especially Jesus, are rather uninteresting during Christmas. They are of course there for those that are interested, but the central things for most people (were I live) are to spend time with close relatives (and maybe also some close friends), eat, lighten up the existence for children and lighten up the darkest time of the year.

Well, many of us 'Christians' celebrate a rather traditional Christmas without thinking much about religion or Jesus (or even spending much time in shops). There are of course those who think they have the right to force-feed every 'Christian' with the religious version of Christmas, just because that version is important to them.

However in my family (that is not especially original), I actually think that we only have a few Christian symbols during Christmas, and a lot of non-religious symbols. The 'religious' symbols are limited to a few kinds of traditional and electric candlesticks, and a Christmas star to hang in a window. Apart from that we have many other symbols and customs of pagan, modern or imported origin.

The religious Christians could however be more pleased by the Santa Lucia day celebration a couple of weeks before Christmas, because it is slightly more Christian in its customs and origin.

Still, I may forget that our pond in north-western Europe may differ somewhat from the USA. I also forget that it is not uncommon, also for secular people, to have a few more religious traditions such as a few merrier psalms and a small Christmas crib.

Well actually there would, since the turn of the sun was celebrated long before year 0, at least in northern and southern Europe. In fact some 'purer' Evangelical Christians see it as a heathen custom, and do not celebrate it.

Luckily enough, most of us 'Christians' (in the Nordic Countries and many other places) care little or nothing about religion during Christmas. You can actually have a very traditional Christmas without any religious symbolism, and our Nordic Santa Claus is, in contrary to for example the Catholic Saint, a kind of smallish elfish being, even if some kind of partly American Santa is common as well.

Happy turning sun :), and I hope it soon returns to us at the 71 degree. At the moment it only, in the best case, lights up a little piece of the sky and occasionally colours some high clouds red.

It seems like someone has found a lump of clay. Let us see what it turns into, since the results of the work of academics, journalists, or amateurs sometimes can be somewhat ignorant and funny. However, I guess the more serious studies and their practical applications have good merits.

Well, maybe it is just the fact that you two (or people you two empathise with) might be on different sides in a conflict for the same soil. A conflict that could affect the reasonableness of both of you, and make you shout out ill balanced expressions like 'Nazi' to the other one.