en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/5886270 Comments by Invictarian https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049973710 "two tiny city states" ?? No. I think you've proved my point: GDP per head Singapore US$ 90,100 (3rd) Hong Kong US$ 58,300 (10th) Germany US$ 48,100 (18th) UK U S$ 42,500 (24th) Sat, 23 Sep 2017 22:43:00 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049973710 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971815 So why has the EU failed to come up with a detailed exit "bill"? If there was a legal justification, we would have seen one. So the EU's bill is either a punishment or a crass, bullying negotiating tactic. The mystery is .... why can't Remainers see the EU for what it is? Why don't Remainers either: a) be a bit patrotic and challenge the EU b) produce some figures to back up their assertions that we "must" pay the EU Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:29:22 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971815 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971471 £ buys "much" less? Do you only believe what the Remain commentariat tell you ? £ /US$ March 2016 ~ 1.4350 £ / US$ Sep 2017 ~1.3550 - down ~9.5% That is well within normal, historical fluctations. When you add in 3 -4% for Carney's irresponsible and unnecessary interest rate cut last August, the fall isn't so bad (and exporters seems to approve) Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:15:30 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971471 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971081 armchair No YOU "clearly don't understand the issue". Do you seriously think that NOT charging tariffs would be "economic suicide"? Perhaps you had better give Singapore and Hong Kong the wisdom of your deeper understanding of the impact of tariff-lite. Singapore: The simple average tariff across all products was 0.20 percent. The trade weighted average tariff was 0.07 Hong Kong levies tariffs only on alcohol, tobacco and gasoline - with a special tax on new cars Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:03:05 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049971081 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049970333 June, If you believe that your description is an accurate way of how EU laws are made, then there seems little hope. You missed out the fact that EU laws can only be formally proposed by the Commission. It also reads like you believe in John Major's "influence" "at the heart of Europe" - - that Qualified Majority Voting (i.e the ability of Foreign politicians to outvote the UK) is somehow compensated by this nebulous "influence". Sat, 23 Sep 2017 20:37:12 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049970333 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049962927 You clearly didn't read his article properly. He said that for Customs purposes a border is a Tax Point. It need only be a check point for security. Sat, 23 Sep 2017 17:04:43 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049962927 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049962856 (Customs) Borders only have to "go up" if we put them up... .... and the UK has said that it wants to keep free trade. In NI it has said "no checks on our side". So if any (Customs) Borders go up, they will be of the EU's making. Sat, 23 Sep 2017 17:02:52 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/charlie-elphicke-may-must-make-the-positive-case-for-a-deal-while-ensuring-were-prepared-to-leave-without-one.html#IDComment1049962856 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049962710 Dunbar Like many older Leavers, I campaigned to stay in the COMMON MARKET - then realised that Heath & Co had lied to us. Many younger voters have no idea how the EU really works. Many young Londoners have no grasp of basic economics - and the impact on house prices of too many people. But as an optimist, I believe that, like the older generation, the young will learn from experience and eventually lose the scales from their idealistic eyes. Sat, 23 Sep 2017 16:58:06 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049962710 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049962374 June, I don't think you "get" sovereignty. i.e. self-determination by a free people. The EU is NOT merely: "... the international debating chamber for European nations." It makes laws that UK elected politicians cannot stop. "We still want EU immigrants. " Speak for yourself ! But if "we" do "want EU immigrants", surely we should be able to control the numbers - so that we can stop house prices rising - pr protect our green spaces? "We will still want our legal system to be consistent with ECJ rulings." No we do not. Firstly the ECJ is a foreign Court and should not trump the UK's Supreme Court. Secondly, Continental law has many principles thar conflict with Common Law. Our legal system is consisten with other English-speaking countries - and is used by many foreigners as framework for fair arbitration. Brexit would bring MANY "significant freedoms". What is your definition of "ordinary people"? I doubt it matches the hundreds of "ordinary" people canvassed during the Referendum. Sat, 23 Sep 2017 16:47:11 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049962374 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049946881 May sells out. In what negotiation do you concede things with nothing in return? Agreeing to a "transition" without knowing what the destination is amounts not not leaving. Assuming "implementation" would take 2 years ignores what David Davis said (correctly) It post Brexit product standards are identical - then no "transition" is required. Offering £billions just to carry on prevaricating ?? Next stop a Labour Government - followed by a UKIP resurgence. Sat, 23 Sep 2017 08:03:13 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049946881 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049946736 Staying in the EU would be "at best sub-optimal for the UK and at worst a disaster". ... because; - We would be bound by EU laws that have nothing to do with cross-border trade, adding costs and reducing liberty - We would be forced to continue with the disastrous Right to Settle (a.k.a. Freedom of Movement) - We would be subject to a Court not bound by our elected representatives. - We would be prevented from making Trade deals with other countries and - We would carry on paying £billions Sat, 23 Sep 2017 07:56:47 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/may-in-florence-she-struggles-to-move-the-talks-on-but-avoids-more-cabinet-dissent-for-the-moment.html#IDComment1049946736 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/henry-newman-johnson-has-got-the-foreign-office-back-in-brexit-business-and-for-that-we-should-all-be-grateful.html#IDComment1049783707 How any Remainer can stay in a responsible job while defending the avalanche of Remain falsehoods is beyond me. The UK pays many £billions to the EU = FACT The UK gets a rebate of a few £ billion = FACT The EU pays a few £billions to UK projects that the EU chooses = FACT. Gross or Net the UK pays many £billions to the EU = FACT Arguing over the precise amount per week is like arguing whether the pile of horse sh*t on your drive is 10 feet high or 5 feet high ! Tue, 19 Sep 2017 22:33:10 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/09/henry-newman-johnson-has-got-the-foreign-office-back-in-brexit-business-and-for-that-we-should-all-be-grateful.html#IDComment1049783707 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/the-vote-leave-led-alternative-government-gove-denies-claims-that-he-has-cut-johnson-adrift.html#IDComment1049783388 "Likely outcome is to put a load of people on the dole queue" Why? What possible evidence ? Oh... I know .... EU officials behave in the interests of EU institutions and not ordinary people. The EU imposes tariffs and other barriers putting German car makers out work. Tue, 19 Sep 2017 22:20:33 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/the-vote-leave-led-alternative-government-gove-denies-claims-that-he-has-cut-johnson-adrift.html#IDComment1049783388 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/the-vote-leave-led-alternative-government-gove-denies-claims-that-he-has-cut-johnson-adrift.html#IDComment1049783307 The so-called Boris weekend is pure "fake news" - a media manufactured "split" with absolutely no substance. Boris's writings have been transparently and ridiculously mis-reported. Even the Statistical Authority Chief got on the "fake news" ride - complaining about what Boris was alleged to have written - not what Boris actually wrote. That Stats man should be fired - and a few media outlets should have their licenses reviewed ! Tue, 19 Sep 2017 22:16:53 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/the-vote-leave-led-alternative-government-gove-denies-claims-that-he-has-cut-johnson-adrift.html#IDComment1049783307 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/put-aside-the-westminster-politics-and-ask-on-brexit-policy-is-johnson-right.html#IDComment1049701885 "knackered currency"? Commentators often overstate the £'s fall. With ups and downs the £ is nearly 10% lower against the US$ since March 2016 - of which 3% can be attributed to Carney's wholely unnecessary and irresponsible interest rate cut. Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:59:48 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/put-aside-the-westminster-politics-and-ask-on-brexit-policy-is-johnson-right.html#IDComment1049701885 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/put-aside-the-westminster-politics-and-ask-on-brexit-policy-is-johnson-right.html#IDComment1049700902 The reaction to Boris' article is yet more "fake news" - a manufactured story. "Nothing to see here". The real question should be: Why did so few Conservative spokesmen push back on this media storm in a teacup ??? Boris said: "we will take back control of roughly £350m per week" ..... "take back control of". The Statistical Authority, by referring to money coming back from the EU completely ignores the "control" aspect. If anyone should resign it is the SA's spokesman ! Paul Goodman claims" "many voters see that slogan as a promise" Having canvassed hundreds of people, not a single one dwelt on the exact amount going to the EU. Not a single one assumed that the NHS would be the ONLY beneficiary. A tiny handful of Remainers mentioned a current beneficiary of the EU - apparently forgetting that by "taking back control", the UK Govt could continue supporting whichever current beneficiary. And Boris's recent statement about being able to pay "much of " that EU money is a perfectly reasonable aspiration. Mon, 18 Sep 2017 08:30:45 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/put-aside-the-westminster-politics-and-ask-on-brexit-policy-is-johnson-right.html#IDComment1049700902 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/public-sector-payback-time.html#IDComment1049536400 The 1% Pay Cap is a myth ..... well largely. And sob stories of "£5,000 worse off after inflation" are mostly cr*p. Most Public Sector workers get regular pay "increments" or micro-promotions. Some, maybe most deserve that little bit on top of the 1% - but it is astonishing that our media "seekers of the truth" have failed to point out the regular extra "increments". The few Public Sector staff with a problem are those already at the top of their pay spine. They need a real promotion to a higher grade if they are to beat the "cap" - or the whole methodolgy needs changing. Fri, 15 Sep 2017 00:29:45 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/public-sector-payback-time.html#IDComment1049536400 http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/07/richard-short-there-is-a-way-to-lift-the-pay-cap-without-caving-in-to-labours-plan-and-putting-jobs-at-risk.html#IDComment1049107062 Why does everyone limit focus to the 1% cap on basic pay? What about annual "increments" - micro-promotions if you like? Plenty of public sector staff in councils and in schools get moved up the "pay spine" on an annual or nearly annual basis. In short, very few "1% capped" staff will have "lost £5,000 after inflation". Tue, 5 Sep 2017 09:47:39 +0000 http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/07/richard-short-there-is-a-way-to-lift-the-pay-cap-without-caving-in-to-labours-plan-and-putting-jobs-at-risk.html#IDComment1049107062 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/whatever-happens-in-the-brexit-talks-we-must-be-ready-on-day-one-deal-or-no-deal.html#IDComment1049018028 "You are not going to square the single market with stopping FOM how ever hard they try" Me ? Probably not. But there is no reason why the SM has to be defined to include FoM - esp. as currently defined - meaning "the Right to Settle". No other trading bloc requires FoM amongst its trading partners. No non-EU country trading with the EU has to accept FoM. If the EU were to limit FoM's scope to those with work permits - a discussion could be had. If the EU went further - FoM for people with a job to go to (i.e. not even a Govt. permit) then maybe, just maybe .... (as long as family members were not an automatic right) Even then, do we really want no limit after receiving tens of thousands of low paid, non/low tax-paying field workers and waiters - all needing to live somewhere ? In short - the EU's definitions of the SM and FoM are unreasonable - and maybe a few outside the Commission might accept that. Sun, 3 Sep 2017 16:06:54 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/whatever-happens-in-the-brexit-talks-we-must-be-ready-on-day-one-deal-or-no-deal.html#IDComment1049018028 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/whatever-happens-in-the-brexit-talks-we-must-be-ready-on-day-one-deal-or-no-deal.html#IDComment1049011013 Endy.... "those plans contradict each other" I'm going to go out on a limb and say - you don't know what you are talking about - as I don't believe you have been to a single Bruges Group Conference to hear such "plans". Obviously each "plan" has different emphasis - but characterising them as "contradictory" is just childish - also irrelevant. Parliament is free to debate any or all such "plan". They just can't concede sovereignty to the EU. As for Hannan'' "nobody is talking about leaving the single market"... It is getting quite tiresome having to correct every Remain misquote or half-quote. DH on Channel 4 with Jon Snow - 14 May 2015 ( well before the Referendum). (1:01) “I've never heard anyone here suggesting that we wouldn't have the same sort of deal that Switzerland has or that the Channel Islands has” “in other words free movement of goods and services and capital but living under our own laws” “What there would be (outside the Customs Union) is far greater opportunity to sign bi-lateral trade deals with countries outside the EU. For example the Swiss have (1:26) signed a trade deal with China. (3:03) To repeat No-one is prejudicing the cross-channel trade. I mean Norway, Switzerland (outside the EU) all of these countries have complete free trade with the EU (3:43) It is bizarre for us - a mercantile, maritime country, to have attached itself to the only Customs Union on the planet that is experiencing zero economic growth. At approx (5:10) DH mis-speaks slightly - but is interrupted by JS before he could clarify “Absolutely no-body is talking about threatening our place in the SM (JS interrupts)” To take this one, obvious slip so completely out of context is primary school playground stuff (“but you said xxxx”) Sun, 3 Sep 2017 11:56:19 +0000 https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/09/whatever-happens-in-the-brexit-talks-we-must-be-ready-on-day-one-deal-or-no-deal.html#IDComment1049011013