226 comments posted · 2 followers · following 1

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 2 replies · -6 points

Come again? What positive influence did Christianity have on Africa? At least half of the continent has Christian majority yet the same former colonial possessions are in the same shabby shape as their Muslim counterparts. Find for us the one truly stellar African nation that has come out of colonial rule with its feet on the ground?

I wouldn't say that Christianity had no positive influence or that Islam had no negative influence. It's nowhere near that simple.

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 4 replies · -7 points

Masquerading as a true democracy you mean. Real democracies don't put your religion on your ID card, set up check points solely for one ethnic group or use a STATE RELIGION to dictate policy. I'm sorry but Israel ,while better on most issues than a medieval style monarchy, has a long way to go before I consider it a Western style democracy.

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 1 reply · -6 points

Mudslimes? Hmmm? Could there be a kernel of truth to the claims by many Muslims that fear of Muslims is in part based on racism?

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 0 replies · -3 points

For what crime Paul? This doesn't draw up any other parallels to you to anything else in history? People placed in camps, deported or executed for their minority Semitic religion... k.

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 2 replies · -5 points

It is almost certain that their actions were motivated by the fanatical bent to their faith Paul. Some particulars about this though can be called truly unIslamic, here is a list.

A.) Women and children were killed. There are two famous hadith concerning killing women and children. One relates to the prophet coming across a woman slain in battle and he remarked that this should not have happened because she was not a combatant. Another one deals with the Muslims asking if they could fire on a fortification of the mujrimun (polytheists) in which there were women, children and Muslim captives. The prophet stated that it was acceptable as long as they did not take intend to take aim at the innocents (collateral damage in modern military speak). Another source is the Qur'an which famously forbid the killing of young girls as was the pagan practice of the Arabs. I am at work but I can link you to these hadith/ayat later as well as fatwas which condemn the murder of women and children.

B.) Fire was used. Most scholars agree that fire is Allah's (subhana wa t'ala) punishment and can not be used by men.

The deed certainly was not justified and never will be. It was an act carried out by fanatics. People such as this can come from any ideology if conditions are right. Consider in contrast the claims by many Bosniak Muslims that their people were burned alive by Serbians as part of war crimes. One Serb was recently convicted for such a crime. The crime was committed by Christians due to ethnic violence in the region. Can they justify their crime within their faith? Of course not, but for a fanatic that doesn't matter.

Feel free to align yourself with the Christians. I'm sure you'll see eye to eye at book burnings, Klan rallies and intelligent design lectures. If you somehow believe that the people who gave you the inquisition, destruction of Hellenic learning and conquest of the New World have changed their stripes you're the most naive atheist I ever met. Critique both our faiths for being extortionist nonsense with a deity who favors divine ordained genocide (ask the Amalekites) but don't assume that the Christians are somehow different.

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 2 replies · -6 points

This all seems very alarmist. Countless men before you have made the same sort of statements about other immigrant groups and each time they have been wrong. What makes you so certain that you're right in this case?

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 2 replies · -5 points

And where shall you chase us to? I am indigenous to the United States as were many generations before me and I am a Muslim. This is my homeland and it will always be my homeland. What will you do with one such as me?

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 7 replies · -9 points

"The vast majority of Muslim immigrants are NOT going to admit that they wanted to move to the West because the values of Christianity created a better civilization than the values of Islam."

I agree that the West is in better shape than most Muslim nations in terms of opportunity, social mobility, freedom of speech, stability and women's rights. Where we will have to disagree is that this is somehow a product of Christianity's influence. Democracy certifiably was not created under the auspices of Abrahamic belief and for centuries the Bible itself was used to justify the subjugation of both women and slaves. Power vested in the people (albeit the ruling men) is a Hellenic concept and predates the inception of Christianity by a longshot.

As to the Muslim world being backwards, I don't really think this is completely a result of Islam's influence. There are other factors you should consider such as the borders of most of these nations being drawn by former colonial masters, ethnic strife existing in these borders, population depletion in some cases in Africa, lack of infrastructure and Western support for dictators.

All that being said I think there are problems with Islam as it is practiced today by many Muslims and I DO see a significant problem with the one sided interpretation given by the Salafi as a result of Saudi oil money. What I would like for you and others here to talk about is the reality that Islam is NOT a monolithic faith and there is a great deal of debate among scholars. Change and acceptance of that which was not specifically mentioned as a religious matter is possible in Islam.

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 6 replies · -7 points

Putting words in my mouth Hugh? For shame. ;)

You're free to draw from whatever sources you like, I'm the one who is defending anyone's right to free speech here. It's not as if in any of my statements I ever claimed that you shouldn't be taking in both sides.

You certainly can not fault Esposito for taking funding from a Saudi royal when is technically the baby of David Horowitz who is a staunch supporter of Israel. It's total hypocrisy to claim that you're somehow not receiving support from the opposite side in the conflict. Unless you're also unwilling to deny that in the same way that Esposito doesn't deny his benefactor?

13 years ago @ Jihad Watch - Jihad Watch: Spencer a... · 2 replies · -9 points

Speaking as a former atheist, I came from a set of people who truly believed that ALL major world religions were cults actively engaged in brainwashing people into believing that their grand extortionist deity was lording over mankind. The only trait you mentioned which is exceptional for Islam is the fact that the classical punishment for apostasy is death. I'm sure that in some parts of the world you can find a scholar or lay believers who uphold this punishment. Certainly the Christian believers have in the past executed those deemed heretical in belief, most notably the Cathars. The only major exception is that the Islamic decree to execute those who change their Islamic religion comes from an authenticated hadith whereas the Catholic Church was acting on their medieval bloodlust.

The point should remain that this is NOT widely practiced and it DOES come from a hadith which is NOT the immutable word of Allah (subhana wa t'ala) and is therefore possibly wrong. The line of oral transmission present for this hadith could have been wrong, it's a possibility. There is room for error. There is room for Muslims to reject this hadith on the basis that it contradicts the Qur'an.

As an anecdote, I am a Muslim living in America and I have known quite a few people who have left Islam. I suppose it may be a product of their being in a country where pluralism is valued, but none of them have been subject of harassment, assaults or homicides. It's certainly true that people like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have been targets for their apostasy. It's also certainly true that those who still live in Islamic nations and are converts to another faith experience discrimination, violence, rape and murder.

What I wonder though, is if you really believe that Islam is a monolithic belief system that simply can not see any kind of reform? Do you really think it feasible to shrug it off as a dangerous cult while 1.1 billion people (or more) are Muslims and it may very well become the world's largest faith in our lifetime?

Back to Wilders, I do know that he backtracked on his commentary when he realized that his true feelings were not politically sound. Any attempt by the government to censor or oppress (real or imagined) a faith is a huge mistake Hugh. You're giving an Abrahamic religion the opportunity to make its believers martyrs which is exactly what they desire. If you try to drive it underground you will empower it. Your best possible solution to support the values you think are superior and critique Islam as an atheist.