GRCluff

GRCluff

29p

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558 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Progression to Godhood... · 0 replies · +1 points

2 Ne 26:16 Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.

2 Ne 28:16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

Historical, even scriptural, but you have to accept the BoM first.

What kind of things would God forbid to be written? Who knows, but if it happened on the American continent, it probably happened in Jerusalem. To Matthew perhaps?

558 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Progression to Godhood... · 1 reply · +2 points

MichaelP asked:
I am still curious about marriage's role in acheiving godhood?

The way to understand this concept properly, from the Mormon perspective is to ask the same question about a similar commandment that may be more acceptable. For example:
I am still curious about baptism's role in acheiving salvation

Take a paragraph or two to answer. Be sure to include bible references. When you are done, run find and replace to substitute marriage for baptism and salvation with exaltation, (or godhood if you prefer) then you will understand the concept properly.

Take Matt 3:5 for example:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Try this change:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, it is not enough to enter into the kindgom of God alone, except a man be sealed in eternal marriage and stay faithful to his wife he cannot have eternal increase in the kingdom of God.

That is the verse that Matthew was commanded to leave out of his gospel, because the world was not ready for deeper doctrine. You know, milk before meat.

558 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Progression to Godhood... · 0 replies · +2 points

I would say they are still true today. I am convinced that eternal progression is the way of truth, but people do tend to look at it wrong. When you consider that the alternative is eternal stagnation, is that not the core definition of damnation? Progress ended, no more growth is a prison condition-- a state of damnation NOT heaven. When we grow in glory ourselves we have more glory to give to Him who created us. Why can none of you see that perspective?

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - The Main Claim of Morm... · 1 reply · +1 points

You have good questions.

Some would say living with God for eternity without continuing progress would be eternal stagnation, and that is never what God has intended. What will you do when he asks you to create an new world. Say no? He does stuff- no sitting around and scratching Himself for my God.

Ok, so others can be saved too. Buddists? Muslims? Jews? How tolerant can you be. We all accepted Christ before we came to earth so it is a moot point. Those who did not followed Satan, and are NOT getting a physical body.

Faith on Christ leads to repentance, so no repentance, no faith in Christ. That is what believing on Christ really means.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - The Main Claim of Morm... · 2 replies · +1 points

I took issue with the sequence of events--
1. intelligence
2. identity and spirit form
3. create the world
4. become a man
5. become a God
He became a God at 1 or 2 not 5. --"later became a God" is clearly not right.

Your restatement just introduces more issues. i.e. I have heard Mormons profess a belief that Christ may be the savior of more than one world, but other Saviors? Other Gods? Not to my knowledge. Possible, perhaps but never professed doctrine.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - The Main Claim of Morm... · 2 replies · +1 points

I think we will agree on the definition of salvation as- "living with God for eternity". We will agree on the process of sanctification and on comprehensive forgiveness of sin through Christ.

The disconnect appears when you equate one-time comprehensive forgiveness of sin with the gift of eternal life as if they were the same event.

Forgiveness of sin is available to all who repent, not just evangelicals who accept Christ. It is an application of the law of mercy, made available through Christ to all who repent in this life.

Those who fail to repent before death must pay the price for their own sins, but must repent nonetheless. Complete repentance via payment for sin is required before judgment can start. (You know, fire, brimstone) This state is temporary.

Eternal life is given to those who meet the requirements of that gift. It is an application of the law of justice, made available through judgment, not mercy. Many who experience the one-time comprehensive forgiveness of sin may not merit eternal life. It makes a difference what you do AFTER that event, and how bad you were BEFORE that event.

We do not connect the two, so Sharon's statement "Christ’s sacrificial death ultimately only rescues those who prove themselves worthy of eternal life" attempts to make a connection we don't use, so it is not correct.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - The Main Claim of Morm... · 3 replies · 0 points

I hate to say this Sharon, but my second gripe is more serious. You still don't have the Mormon concept of salvation right.

You said:
in Mormonism’s rearranged gospel Christ’s sacrificial death ultimately only rescues those who prove themselves worthy of eternal life.

Mormonism's application of Christ's sacrifical death is MORE liberal that that of evangelicals in that it will apply to EVERY person ever born, even if they never heard the name of Jesus.

I applies to every person who repents, and makes repentance possible for everyone. Is that a rescue? I think it is. Without that option we would be hoplessly lost on our first sin.

It means Christ's death will benefit those who don't merit eternal life-- just not has much as those who repent more. That is why we still need judgement. Does your Bible speak of judgement day?

Evangelicals want to apply grace to people who DON'T repent, on the arbitrary condition of lip service. Accept Christ and be saved. NOT the right condition for the application of grace. The right condition is repentence, not lip service. He saves us FROM our sins not IN our sins.

The evangelical approach makes savation arbitrary and judgment day meaningless.

There is our real difference.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - The Main Claim of Morm... · 4 replies · 0 points

Sorry Sharon, but I am the detail oriented type. I can't let a couple comments here go unchallenged. You are getting much closer to our real differences though.

Just a minor detail, but Christ became a God AND created the earth BEFORE he became a man. He was the God of this world before he created it (or organized it if you prefer), while still in spirit form. In that regard the statement "an eternal intelligence was organized into a man who later became a God." is not entirely right. I will offer my sincere contratulations that you finally got the idea right on Him not being a created being.

It is possible in my mind that he was a God even before he took on spirit form. The big difference here is really the trinity concept. When Christ took on spirit form, He became more like God the Father. When he took on flesh, once again, He became more like God the Father. They are one in purpose not one in substance. In the beginning the plural "God" created the world. More that one being working in unison. Maybe one working under the direction or assignment of the other. There is our real difference.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Do We Need to Become C... · 1 reply · +1 points

Were you aware that the word God in that verse (Genesis) in the original Hebrew has a plural interpretation? It literally means Gods (plural).

My reference would be the first chapter of John.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Just replace Word with Jesus and it works for me.

559 weeks ago @ Mormon Coffee - Do We Need to Become C... · 2 replies · +1 points

I knew someone was going to say that- just for the record, where is your Bible reference?

IF God did create the world from existing matter, it helps explain the dinosaur bones--

Please, lets not start a discussion on evolution. We already have enough meat on the table.