en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/655107 Comments by DrConcerned http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56255527 Jack, you are missing the point. For centuries women have given themselves abortions even at the risk of their own lives. They are, for lack of a better word, insane. This is not a new phenomenon. By taking away the ability to get a doctor-performed abortion, you are condemning both the woman and her fetus to death. Women who want an abortion often kill themselves trying to abort the fetus themselves. We have a long standing tradition in this country of sparing insane people the death penalty. It is defined as cruel and unusual punishment because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. I believe a woman who would kill herself to avoid carrying a fetus to term fits those standards. Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:51:11 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56255527 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56159291 Well Jack, I don't even know how to reply to this. That is some crazy stuff. I do appreciate your passion though. I believe you are fighting what you believe to be the good fight and I can't fault you for that! I guess I'll just have to say good day and blessings to you and yours. Thank you for your time. Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:04:21 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56159291 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56158714 Here is some black and white for you - Women have been giving themselves abortions for 3500 years. Herbs, implements, physical pressure. The problem isn't a new one. And outlawing it won't make it go away. I wish it would. Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:57:52 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56158714 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56157740 I appreciate life as much as I fully can. I believe it is to be savored. I think the women who choose to get abortions maybe don't appreciate life, and perhaps that is part of the problem. Women who choose abortions often live in broken homes or are in abusive relationships and feel trapped by a pregnancy. They then make a stressed decision without regard to the consequences, either good or bad. So in the end, it doesn't matter what we think, or what is legal or what is illegal. Women have had abortions since the Egyptians. This is not a new problem. Given that fact, how do we minimize it? How do we save the most lives? Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:46:47 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56157740 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56155616 Oh, Idaho Gal... why do you keep me up so late? I did a quick a search of U.S. State Laws using Findlaw.com - And at least Idaho and California have NO LAWS regarding the use of ultrasound, or whether they can show the mother the pictures during an abortion procedure. In fact, it seems there are only very basic laws that govern the details of the procedure. So abortion providers may or may be following these practices, but you need to get your facts straight. Show me any state law that forbids ultrasound before an abortion. If you find one, I think it will be the exception rather than the rule, but let's try and stick to the facts. The rest of your argument is complete speculation. Women are told a lot of things regarding babies, but if they don't know what they are carrying inside their womb, they have bigger problems than being pregnant. Again, I point out that women who see ultrasounds and know they are carrying a human fetus still choose to get abortions. You don't like it. I don't like it. But it happens everyday. If abortion is outlawed, some of the very same women will choose to do the procedure themselves, which is why I believe choice is to be protected. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I feel you are choosing to see only 1 side of a 2-sided problem. Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:21:37 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment56155616 http://www.katu.com/news/local/83982017.html#IDComment56139265 Ok. Quick science lesson. You bury petroleum-based plastic in the ground. It rains. Most water flows directly to the nearest creek, river, pond, whatever. But some water gets absorbed into the ground, where the soft earth filters it on its way to the water table - huge chambers of water - the lowest places it can go without getting turned to steam by the earth's core heat. Sometimes the water table is so far down the only way it ever sees the light of day again is to drill for it and pump it out. Usually anywhere with a relatively high elevation. But if you live in a soft, green, low land like the Willamette Valley, the water table isn't very deep and that water eventually leaches back into rivers, creeks, ponds, etc. So if you first filter all of that water through decomposing petroleum and soft earth, the resulting water is tainted. Essentially poisoned by the petrochems. And you're correct - it won't really matter to us living now, but over the next hundred years that water is constantly leaching back into water supply. Not safe to drink. Taints vegetation. Fish don't like it. Even a few hundred years isn't that far away. So maybe your children wouldn't be affected too bad, but your grandchildren and great grandchildren might see the effects. The further along you go, the worse the effects would be. A plastic jug has an estimated decomposition time of 1 million years. It is really strong stuff! That's why we love it so. Anyway, in a place like the Willamette Valley it all eventually goes back into what we eat and drink. I guess the bottom line is that you shouldn't poop where you eat. Keep your eyes on China in the coming years and you should start to see. I'm already reading about deformed babies in the industrial cities. Those people throw EVERYTHING in the river! Crazy. Worse case scenario. I bet their burgers are cheap though. Anyone know what they use to line landfills with? I know it's not hard plastic. I wonder what the decomposition time is on those liners... I guess I don't mind the paper cups in the landfill. I maybe buy 20 drinks a year at a fast food place... what is that, $4.00 a year for the fancy cups then? I can afford that. If I were smarter I wouldn't eat out at all... Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:21:40 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/local/83982017.html#IDComment56139265 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55899805 Agreed. As I said in one of my earlier replies, some human behaviors are easier to draw lines around than others. I am glad we have laws when it comes to driving in traffic, free speech, gun ownership, etc. It's just that those things are relatively small when compared to carrying a child in your womb. I urge anyone reading this, on either side of the debate, to not look at it in such black-and-white terms. Something as emotionally and physically complex as reproduction has many shades of gray in it. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:27:15 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55899805 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55899146 I couldn't agree more. The battle is for hearts and minds. Legislation will not work to solve the problem. I have seen the pictures and they are tough to look at. It makes me wonder how a woman could still want an abortion after seeing such images. Many change their minds, but many don't. That tells me that for some women, the fear of carrying a child to term transcends all logic, which is why banning all abortions is cruel and inhumane. Many women would rather risk death than carrying a child to term. It's plain sad, but it is the truth. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:21:41 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55899146 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55898376 I agree with you Jack. No one has the right to murder or commit wreckless killing. But I don't believe that early term abortion and murder are the same thing. Murder occurs between two completely separate, conscious individuals, while a fetus is totally dependent on it's mother for survival, and is thus subject to all of her decisions. You may be surprised to know that I think it is a good idea to limit late-term abortions (except for rape, incest). At some point the fetus becomes a viable individual, and termination is no longer abortion but murder. Go ahead and accuse me of splitting a fine hair, but as I said previously, this is a very complicated subject and I think splitting fine hairs is exactly what is called for. Honestly, I think limiting late-term abortions has been one of the successes of the Great abortion debate. It's one area where both sides have largely found a consensus. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:14:55 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55898376 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55896959 My apologies. You misunderstand me. I agree each child is wonderful and unique and has unlimited potential. My point was that as a species, there are a lot of human beings. 6.5 billion on the planet last time I checked. Anything that exists in those kinds of numbers tends to be less valuable. I think if there were fewer of us, we might treat each other with more respect and kindness. And you'll be glad to know I am not a medical physician. I just spend a lot time thinking about the world's problems. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:02:17 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55896959 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55896445 Excellent point. We definitely need laws to function as a society. I just think it is much easier to draw lines around some behaviors more than others. A fetus growing in a women's uterus is about the toughest thing I can imagine writing laws to govern. It is just a very complex subject and should be treated as such. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:57:59 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55896445 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55894720 I have not heard their vitriol, so perhaps I have been living under a rock. I do know that both sides have demonized the other into entrenched positions. SO despite the rhetoric, I find it VERY hard to believe that anyone is cheering more abortions. Honestly, that would make no sense, as it is an indefensible position. I do know that when proponents on either side of the debate get backed against a wall, they will say and do terrible things to defend their position. Much like many of the other great debates going on in society - guns, war on terror, gays in the military, health care -both sides have valid points. And both sides have used horrible tactics to drive home their points, always to no avail. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:43:06 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55894720 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55831586 I actually wasn't replying to your comments directly, more to the overall tone of the debate here. I will say you seem a bit hostile, but I know that is part of the deal. We're talking about an emotional subject. First off, there is no one that thinks abortion is "right". There is no one cheering for more abortions, or trying to force women into abortions because they think abortion are the best choice. When a woman decides to have an abortion, it is VERY OBVIOUS what she is doing. So the government telling me it is wrong seems highly unnecessary, especially in a (supposedly) free country like ours. Secondly, I do give a fig about the baby, but in all honestly, the unborn baby has no choice. I have a two year old daughter, and even she has no choice. I make her choices for her, and will do so as much as possible until she is 18. Sadly, human life is expendable and has been since the dawn of time. I believe that babies are the most incredible things ever, miraculous even, but they are not unique. Almost any woman can have one. Or have twenty. Listen, life is hard. Life can end in horrible ways and always will. War, disease, famine, murder. That is part of the cost of living. And I believe the benefits of free will and conscious choice for hundreds of millions of people outweigh the costs of abortion, as grotesque as those costs are. At the end of the day, telling someone what they can and can't do with their bodies is just as impossible as ending war or any of the other thousands of terrible things we do to each other every day. It just won't work. Hopefully my daughter won't get pregnant before she is ready, but I know kids do stupid, risky things. I know I did. A teen's brains aren't even developed enough to fathom the consequences. So the last thing I would want her doing is acting on her own to perform a risky abortion that may end both her life and the child's. And that is exactly what happens when abortion is made illegal. So my goal has always been to work for ways to make it easier for women to find alternatives to abortion, which in my opinion starts with sex education (early), contraception, and open adoptions. If you can't do that, then I suggest you offer care, love, support and understanding for those who chose, for whatever selfishly human reason, to terminate. For most of those women, they carry the pain and guilt for a lifetime. But as I said in my previous post, there is no telling what can come from their choice. And that is beauty of having free will and living in America. Mrs. Tebow had a choice. Any woman in the same position has a right to the same. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 09:12:27 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55831586 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55821064 I am pro-choice and I liked the ad. It was honest and real and devoid of the ignorance and hate that I read in most of these posts. Mrs. Tebow exercised her right to choose and I'm happy for her. But she made a choice - which is something most of you would wish deny others in the same situation. I believe women that have abortions often feel terrible guilt and sadness at their decision. But others do not. And if any of you love freedom like you say you do, you have to realize that making abortions illegal WILL NOT stop it from happening. Women have had abortions for thousands of years -long before Roe v Wade - and usually at the expense of their own lives. If you love freedom, you have to take the good with the bad. No person, government or religious institution has the authority to dictate what someone can and can't do with their bodies. Once they have that power, freedom is over. Then they can tell you to wear a beard in honor of a messiah, dress you in burqa, circumsize you, tattoo you... the possibilities are endless. I feel sorry and sad for the women who choose an abortion, but I will fight to the end their right to do so. Maybe they will continue to screw up their lives, but maybe they won't. Maybe they will take their pain, sorrow and regret and do something wonderful with it. That is beauty of living in a free country. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 06:01:34 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/sswift/2010/02/07/come-on-naral-be-proud-of-your-work-on-super-sunday/#IDComment55821064 http://www.katu.com/news/local/83691437.html#IDComment55571202 Not only do I love islamic terrorists, I love sunsets, puppy dogs and spring rain. Sat, 6 Feb 2010 04:38:30 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/local/83691437.html#IDComment55571202 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55268510 Excellent point. I have heard this same story about the Fed. There are actually a few books out there on this subject... I'll have to do more research. Can you imagine a president even suggesting getting rid of the Fed? Bedlam! Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:13:48 +0000 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55268510 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55267773 True dat Azoth. We are in a heap of a mess. There is plenty of blame to go around. We are talking about decades of tax cuts and rampant spending. The funny thing is, all of the spending does go somewhere - parks, roads, fish, transportation, defense, social security, food stamps so kids can eat. All things we like to have. So we're all to blame. But when the bills come due no one wants to pay. I hate bailouts too, but I think they were the right thing to do. Imagine going to your ATM only to realize your dollars aren't even worth the paper they are printed on. I think that's what we were looking at before the bailouts, as crappy as that giveaway was. Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:04:51 +0000 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55267773 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55257203 Become an Amway distributor? Thu, 4 Feb 2010 00:17:19 +0000 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55257203 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55257164 I wish you would have said that to Bush... AIG bailout, pushed through $1 trillion unfunded tax giveaway, 2 wars funded by credit from China, a $1 trillion prescription drug benefit (also unfunded), created the largest bureaucracy in American history with Homeland Security.... Sure was great to see all the fiscal conservatives out there. Lol! WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU??! Thu, 4 Feb 2010 00:17:01 +0000 http://www.katu.com/economy/83488882.html#IDComment55257164