en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/1345183 Comments by ChrisJ82 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386518190 You continue to make it apparent you haven't paid attention to what's been going on. Time and again the investigation has backed off on what they asked for, time and again they've been met with "no." Hell, subpoenas didn't even enter the equation until long after they should have. So tell me again who isn't compromising? But even then, there are certain things that shouldn't be compromised. Finding the answers in exchange for covering up wrong doing is one of them. That's like saying the NDAA and Patriot Act are good because they had bipartisan support. Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:31:50 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386518190 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386493516 "But who has been willing to compromise in this, and who has not?" Yes indeed, who has? IF you are in fact not partisan, it's becoming apparent you haven't been following the case. Only one side has been uncooperative, lies continually, backpedals when caught in the lie, and then has to retract their lies, only to repeat it on the next iteration as more documents get provided by whistleblowers. What's worse still is their supporters on the various committees, because they're not under oath they can lie in even bigger and more grandiose ways. "The reality is it will strengthen the administration's hand." Not in the court room as you are so found of pointing out. In the court room Cumming's shenanigans go away and I can't imagine the judge will look very fondly on Holder's perpetual lying, backpedaling, and retracting. Nor the retaliating against whistleblowers that has ensued. "I'm just playing the odds" Actually you're conflating public opinion from events like the limited release of clean documents with what a judge in a courtroom will decide. With the former you're picking the odds right, with the latter I don't think any of us know the odds, Issa and Obama included. Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:47:22 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386493516 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386157090 But that would contradict what Holder has said under oath, as well as what Obama has said for himself as well! ;-) Thu, 21 Jun 2012 06:11:50 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386157090 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386154906 Very good, you showed us you know how to look up a definition in the dictionary, but given your statements, and the especially amusing fact that you think your registration status is some sort of defense against being partisan, you clearly don't understand it. I'd like you give you credit for maybe trying to plays devils advocate but you keep beating this dead horse as if you've become more personally invested in it. There are no national security concerns (according to them), this hasn't involved the president (according to them), the requested documents were not the president's advisers advising him, and they are not the deliberative processes of the President or his advisers, yet you insist on repeatedly copy&pasting it over and over, as if you say it often enough (loud enough?) people will be swayed. And as I pointed out you even resorted to strawman fallacies and try to act like that wasn't what you were doing. You've picked a side, and it's not based on any rational analysis of the facts. Thu, 21 Jun 2012 06:07:53 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386154906 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386088352 Partisan. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Thu, 21 Jun 2012 03:57:57 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386088352 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386086587 Wow, you mean you didn't just say that the operation's genesis documents would be covered by the executive privilege? Because I could swear that was what I was replying to, as a matter of fact it's still there. Sure sounds like one of us is a partisan hack twisting at windmills for his messiah. I'm sure you'll dispute which one of us it is, but I think the rest of the readers are able to figure that one out on their own ;-). Thu, 21 Jun 2012 03:54:39 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment386086587 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385925667 That's what terrifies me, justice is the ONE thing government has to absolutely get right. If they can't do that, then there's no point in even having a government. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:17:33 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385925667 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385923372 Oh and lets not forget that Holder has had to refute your claims in several committee hearings. Most recently he got his nice little sound bite in during the hearing, but the DOJ has since had to retract his statement for him. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:14:28 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385923372 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385918487 Oh you mean the operations that attempted to work a sting with the Mexican authorities but ended up botched? And by botched, I mean the Mexican authorities didn't do their job of arresting the bad guys as they crossed the border. As opposed to this operation which just helped straw purchasers (some of which were felons!) buy guns and then helped smuggle the guns across the border with no attempts or design to catch them? Oh yes, I see, they're totally the same.... /sarc Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:07:37 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385918487 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385913482 Please, you're just embarrassing yourself. OCDETF forms, and other applications for approval and funding are not covered by this, and you know it. You're tilting at windmills Don Quixote. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:58:51 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385913482 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385896151 Over a year and half in, and we don't even have the most rudimentary answers regarding this case... who's idea it was, who approved that idea, who approved funding to carry it out, what they thought they'd accomplish, how they thought they were going to accomplish it, how instructions regarding letting smugglers with weapons go, traveled horizontally from ATF-DOJ to ICE-DHS, how the three way love triangle between FBI-DEA-ATF's informants-funding-strawpurchasers worked, and probably a few other questions I can't recall quickly off the top of my head. ... and now the administration wants to use executive privilege, oh that's rich! Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:27:30 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/House-committee-holds-AG-Holder-in-contempt-159782775.html#IDComment385896151 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385889546 "A document is predecisional if IT was "generated before the adoption of an agency policy"" That doesn't sound at all like what Issa was looking for, which is the reaction to agency policy, not the creation of it. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:16:21 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385889546 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385863140 So instead of putting my own interpretation and spin on it, and potentially misconstruing it, I will simply copy&paste from Issa's fact sheet... ”In responding to Congress, however, the Justice Department has taken the position that it will not share its internal deliberations related to Operation Fast and Furious that occurred after it denied anything inappropriate occurred on February 4, 2011. This position effectively denies Congress and the American people information about: - The Justice Department switching its view from denying whistleblower allegations to admitting they were true. - Hiding the identity of officials who led the charge to call whistleblowers liars and retaliate against them. - The reactions of top officials when confronted with evidence about gunwalking in Fast and Furious, including whether they were surprised or were already aware. - The Justice Department’s assessment of responsibility for officials who knew about reckless conduct or were negligent. - Whether senior officials and political appointees at fault in Operation Fast and Furious were held to the same standards as lower level career employees whom the Department has primarily blamed. While the Department of Justice claims that divulging this information would have a “chilling effect” on future internal deliberations, virtually any agency could use this bland argument on nearly any topic. Congress, under both Democratic and Republican leadership, has never recognized internal agency discussions as privileged and protected." Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:27:04 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385863140 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385862953 Unfortunately that gigantic leap is precisely that, the straw man is still a fallacy, and you continue to try and run with it. If we reached the point that the administration actually says (with a straight face and in all seriousness) they turned everything over I would be ecstatic, instead we're at the point that they've turned over virtual nothing and promise to turn over nothing else, except a few carefully chosen snippets that aren't incriminating. If they in fact turned over everything we would have starting with the OCDETF application, a clear chain of who's idea it was, who approved that idea, who approved funding to carry it out, what they thought they'd accomplish, how they thought they were going to accomplish it, how instructions regarding letting smugglers with weapons go, traveled horizontally from ATF-DOJ to ICE-DHS, how the three way love triangle between FBI-DEA-ATF's informants-funding-strawpurchasers worked, and probably a few other questions I can't recall quickly off the top of my head. To date no attempts at providing answers to any of these questions has been made by the administration. Trying to follow the administration's non-performance with silly strawmen questions about if the administration told you they gave you everything just shows your partisan colors. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:26:42 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385862953 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385824888 Executive privilege is only within the bounds of the law under certain circumstances. Circumstances that don't appear to be present in this case. Of course I won't be the least bit surprised when GOP leaders like Boehner and McConnell punt on it. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:23:37 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385824888 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385824625 What you did there is called a straw man, and it's a logical fallacy. No one is even dreaming of asking for all records 'just to be sure.' They are asking for the documents pertinent to a false document supplied to congress, in particular the managerial aspects of it. Management's behavior is precisely the heart of the matter and would have provided the answers to the whos and whys of fast and furious. The earlier documents would have also provided those answers but the DOJ's improper redacting techniques has prevented those from being used. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:23:22 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385824625 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385743491 The focus is one "advise and assist," the decision makers are still accountable. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:09:50 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385743491 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385742413 The media is putting a spin on the access to these documents, they are in fact usually available to subpoena, that is why Obama had to apply executive privilege despite the dubious circumstances with lacking involvement or national security issues. Really, the problem really goes back further to the DOJ not turning over documents and improperly redacting the documents they did turn over. Most of the questions would have been answered if they only redacted investigation case details, while leaving the all important operation management details that congress was after, instead they blanked out the documents entirely and hid behind 'active and on going cases'. That alone was grounds for contempt. When they retaliated against whistleblowers and lied to congress that opened up a clean path for getting those answers that wasn't impeded by these 'active investigation' concerns, resulting in where we are today, still no questions answered and the President improperly throwing his weight around. Issa, Gowdy, Grassley, and others have been more than accommodating while the Democrats have played their political games. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:08:06 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385742413 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385742286 Releasing documents you've already admitted don't incriminate you doesn't really prove anything. Frankly, everything Holder has done over the course of this issue makes him look incredibly stupid, he's dug a hole so deep with his lies that he needed his boss to bail him out. That's not the work of a smart man. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:07:55 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385742286 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385714565 If there were interoffice communications with the White House then Holder lied under oath about it, and Obama lied to the public, not under oath but still a lie. It also wasn't given privileged status until just before the contempt vote. There's no dishonesty at all on Issa's part, and actually Obama has really opened himself up on this one by only now invoking executive privilege in very dubious circumstances. Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:23:59 +0000 http://www.katu.com/news/national/Obama-asserts-executive-privilege-in-Operation-Fast-and-Furious-159714655.html#IDComment385714565