en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/270961 Comments by Bill McKeever http://blog.mrm.org/2011/01/lying-for-the-lord/#IDComment125478278 Melo, I know this is an emotional subject, but can you try posting your thoughts again without the controversial adjectives? Let's try to stay within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15. Thanks! Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:22:01 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2011/01/lying-for-the-lord/#IDComment125478278 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97432851 There is nothing unethical about it, Jim. This is not your blog site. You've made some brash statements and I am giving you an opportunity to make your positions clear. You obviously don't want to answer some simple yes/no questions I have provided. If the circumstances were reversed I am confident that no LDS blog site would have been as patient with you as we have. Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:54:06 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97432851 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97364818 Abuse of power? Why Jim, I'm just giving you a dose of Mormon grace. You obey the commands and I give you the grace to stay. You of all people should understand that. So please, don't waste my time. Answer the questions I've posed. Since I'll be away from Internet connection for a few days, take your time. Mon, 6 Sep 2010 23:51:48 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97364818 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97350437 Jim, it is not that I have a problem with Mormon verses that speak of grace and include the word "then." My problem is I believe words have meaning. I can cite numerous LDS leaders who make it very clear that there is a condition and a result of meeting the condition. When you say you are justified by Christ only AS you repent, forsake sin, and obey, then it makes sense that you are not justified when you fail to repent, forsake sin, or obey. This is not at all the definition of grace, since grace, by its very essence, must be unmerited. Am I bothered by the word "then" as you say? As a person who is genuinely concerned for Mormons, yes I am, but I would think it should bother you even more because you really have no faith or assurance that the atonement is working for you at a given moment. You may be cognizant of your sins of commission, but what about sins of omission? They are still sins nonetheless. This explains perfectly why you can't give me a definite yes when I ask you "if you were to die right now, do you have the assurance if your sins are forgiven?" Now, without giving me a long run-around, 1) "How many works must a Mormon like you do to receive the grace that purifies? 2) Have you personally done enough to receive it or are you still classified as "unclean" according to the above quote? IOW, are you justified right now? " BTW, as I explained, right now this is between you and me. I am giving you a chance to explain yourself and I will do my best to reply in a timely manner. Do not post anywhere else on Mormon Coffee until I am satisfied that you have answered my questions completely and honestly. If you do post elsewhere, they will be deleted. If you persist, you will be blocked. Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:34:41 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97350437 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97316556 Jim, you're not listening very carefully, Many Christians have attempted to answer your questions. I included. But you still maintain that no one understands Mormonism. I am giving you a platform to clarify the issues for us. This means I ask the questions and you get to answer them. As for grace being "limited" to universal resurrection, I don't believe I said that, and if I did, I most certainly misspoke. I have often stated that salvation by grace ALONE has been described by LDS leaders as universal resurrection. I have always understood that in a Mormon context grace is coupled with an individual's works. You said you are justified by the atonement of Christ, yet page 77 of True to the Faith, states,“Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality (see 2 Nephi 9:6-13). But resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23)." You say you are a sinner. I am too. But Alma 11:37 says God cannot save us in our sins. We both admit we need grace, but Mormons here have stated that works come before grace. How many works must a Mormon like you do to receive the grace that purifies? Have you personally done enough to receive it or are you still classified as "unclean" according to the above quote? IOW, are you justified right now? Mon, 6 Sep 2010 17:02:17 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97316556 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97292545 No Jim, for the time being it's not going to work that way. You've already demonstrated your distain for what many of us here believe and hold sacred and you are certainly allowed your opinion. However, many of the posters here have served many years as former members of the LDS Church, as well as others having spent years of extensive study on the subject, and still you constantly insist none of us know what Mormonism teaches. So this is going to be your moment to clarify what you, as a Mormon, claim to believe. The rules will be very simple. Answer my questions or find a better way to spend your time. Understood? Let's begin with the questions I've sent you before. I don't think anyone would argue that repentance is more than a "one time deal." What I'm trying to understand from you is what justifies you before God. You said that my "beliefs remove responsibility from the individual and the cost of personal disobedience." I then asked you, ""how will you be judged for your personal disobedience, I mean, you do sin, don't you? Or have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?" Since Moroni 10:32 makes it clear that denying ALL ungodliness is required before you receive the grace that is sufficient, I ask again, have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? Mon, 6 Sep 2010 14:05:38 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment97292545 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96992982 Not so fast, Jim. IF YOU REPENT? Are you telling all of us that you have not yet repented of your sins? Make it clear to us, Jim. Have you repented of your sins? If you were to die right now, do you have the assurance that all of your sins are forgiven? Sat, 4 Sep 2010 20:44:04 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96992982 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96968683 WyomingWilly is right to question Olsenjim's assumption that evangelicals don't believe in repentance. Olsenjim's comment has no basis in fact and is intended only to inflame. My observations tell me that many of the Mormons who post here don't seem to take repentance seriously. Guys like Iamse7en,Geoffw77, and Olsenjim come into conversations, accuse everyone they diagree with of being liars and ignorant, but when their assumptions are refuted with evidence they too often respond with more personal innuendo or scurry back into the darkness. Part of the repentance process is making amends with those you've transgressed. I don't see a lot of that from Mormons who continue to make outlandish comments here are Mormon Coffee. For instance, Iamse7en called me a liar for one of the questions I raised for Glenn Beck and then made the unfounded conclusion that the United Order was voluntary. Myself and f_melo responded with quotes from Mormon scripture showing this was not at all true. Does Iamse7en begin his repentance process with an apology to me? No. Geoffw77 accuses Sharon of lying in her article on the alleged expulsion of Mormons from Iceland. He announces that "HUNDREDS died fleeing their persecutors during the Missouri War. Even HUNDREDS more Mormons perished from exposure fleeing their persecutors after the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyram Smith." I respond by showing that Mormon historians like Turley, Walker, and Leonard admit that the LDS Church never "made a full accounting of their casualties" and estimated deaths in the "dozens." Still a horrible atrocity, but not the exaggerated HUNDREDS mentioned by Geoffw77. On that same subject B.H. Roberts said "careful estimates" put the number at people killed at about 50. Did Geoffw77 ever have the decency to begin his repentance process by apologizing to Sharon? No. All we get are crickets chirping. After I posted my third challenge for Olsenjim to demonstrate if he is really a forgiven commandment keeper, I wondered if I was too strong to imply that he might just be a big-talking hypocrite. In retrospect I don't think I was too strong with that implication. It seems to me that these guys are nothing more than M. Russell Ballard's trolls and I admit I am growing very weary of them. Sat, 4 Sep 2010 16:51:10 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96968683 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96818236 Jim, this is no gimmick. Answer my question. You come on here always talking a good game about obedience and works. I want to know if I am communicating to an obedient, forgiven Mormon or just another big-talking hypocrite. Now, "how will you be judged for your personal disobedience, I mean, you do sin, don't you? Or have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?" Fri, 3 Sep 2010 21:46:29 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96818236 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96779906 Answer my question, Jim. You made an issue about the cost of disobedience. I asked, "how will you be judged for your personal disobedience, I mean, you do sin, don't you? Or have you denied yourself of all ungodliness?" Fri, 3 Sep 2010 17:01:46 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96779906 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96700409 I can't count how many times I've read the New Testament and completely missed the concept that God saves people according to the "American concept of freedom." And to think Jesus dying for my sins is a socialistic concept as well. Wow, that's a keeper. So Jim, if you want to talk about the cost of personal disobedience, let me ask how will you be judged for your personal disobedience, I mean, you do sin, don't you? Or have you denied yourself of all ungodliness? Fri, 3 Sep 2010 04:28:13 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96700409 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96637598 Ridiculous Seven? I've read the arguments from LDS leaders insisting the two are not the same. Let me say that the mantra "Socialism takes, the United Order gives" is not convincing for I am sure that our present administration in Washington views their socialistic policies in a similar manner. It is a game of semantics I refuse to play. The very fact that this was something the LDS leaders had to explain and defend long after it was abandoned shows me that the similarities were very real. I think you also overlook the alleged "divine" origins of the United Order. God ordained this according to Smith, so to say it was voluntary is incredibly misleading. According to the Book of Commandments (42:26ff) members were told, "thou shalt consecrate ALL thy properties." Said properties were to be given to the Bishop: "after that he has received the properties of my church, that it cannot be taken from the church, he shall appoint every man a steward over his own property, or that which he has received inasmuch as is sufficient for himself and family: and the residue shall be kept to administer to him who has not, that every man may receive according as he stands in need." Hmm, that sounds familiar. Karl Marx once said, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." As f_melo correctly notes, when you read D&C 104, Smith (shamfully invoking the name of God, no less) is actually calling down curses on those who were not participating. It was about as "voluntary" as the "Law of Tithing" that replaced it when the United Order proved to be a failure. Oh sure, a Mormon can resist and not participate in the Law of Tithing, but only at the risk of his exaltation. No tithe, no recommend; no recommend, no temple participation; no temple participation, no learning the necessary secret handshakes and passwords; no learning the secret handshakes and passwords, no getting past the angelic sentinels; no getting passed the angelic sentinels, no celestial kingdom. I am fully aware of Christian responsibilities toward the legitimate poor, but Joseph Smith goes too far when he says that those who do not "impart their portion" will "with the wicked, lift up his eyes up in hell, being in torment" (D&C 104:18). Apparently a lot of Mormons didn't take this threat seriously because the United Order had to be abandoned, not only when Smith was alive, but also after Brigham Young tried to resurrect it again in Utah years later. This should speak loudly to Mormons that this was not a concept ordained by God because after all, if Mormon scripture is true, God's commands are "unalterable," He does not "vary from that which he hath said," nor are His works "frustrated." Sadly, it does not. As to your question about Obama's view of collective salvation, I really can't say. I will say this, Beck is right when he said "I cannot be saved for you. I cannot save you. I can't even save myself." However, this raises another question for Mr. Beck. "Do you participate in baptisms for the dead?" Several LDS leaders equated this ordinance will the ability to "save" others: Wilford Woodruff said: "We have been called as Saviors upon Mount Zion, while the kingdom has been the Lord's. These are glorious principles. To be saved ourselves, and to save our fellowmen, what a glorious thing!" Lorenzo Snow: "These brethren and sisters that are laboring so industriously in the temples will have the honor of being, as it were, saviors to their kindred and friends in whose favor they administered these ordinances." Heber J. Grant: "But if we believe in the vicarious work of Christ, we must believe that one can do work for another, and that we also may become 'saviors upon Mount Zion.'" Joseph Fielding Smith: “But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become saviors, in our lesser degree which is assigned us, for the dead who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel, Joseph Smith said: ‘The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead.’ Why is this such a grave responsibility? For two reasons. First, because we cannot enter into the perfect life without our worthy dead who have not been blessed as we have with the Gospel. Second, because they who have lived worthy lives, but in darkness, because the Gospel did not come to them in life, are also heirs of salvation." Thu, 2 Sep 2010 19:19:46 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/09/questions-for-glenn-beck/#IDComment96637598 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/08/condemning-unbelievers/#IDComment94927144 “And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none--and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance” (The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 28:21,22). Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:36:29 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/08/condemning-unbelievers/#IDComment94927144 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/the-not-so-mormon-soteriology-of-glenn-beck/#IDComment90939808 Suzy, blanket accusations don't get very far here. Provide evidence for your accusations and refrain from insults. Thu, 5 Aug 2010 06:13:18 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/the-not-so-mormon-soteriology-of-glenn-beck/#IDComment90939808 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/mormon-story-of-icelandic-persecution-collides-with-fact/#IDComment90005081 Well said, mamawrench. As Luther once prayed: “Grant us grace that your holy name may be hallowed by us throughout all the world, by the pure and sincere teaching of the Word and the steady love of our life. Graciously turn aside every false doctrine and all sinful living in which your holy name is blasphemed and profaned. Amen.” Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:55:23 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/mormon-story-of-icelandic-persecution-collides-with-fact/#IDComment90005081 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/mormon-story-of-icelandic-persecution-collides-with-fact/#IDComment89707087 This is what B.H. Roberts (author of the Comprehensive History of the Church) said in a conference message in October, 1901: "First, let me tell you the net results of the persecution of the Latter-day Saints in Missouri, so far as they can be told in a summary: There were killed outright of men, women and children, so far as careful estimates can be made, more than fifty souls. There were as many more wounded and beaten. How many perished by slow death, suffering untold agonies, by reason of exposure and cruelties, no one knows, nor can it be computed." Roberts says "careful estimates" total around 50. I assume 17-18 of those estimated 50 were from Haun's Mill. According to Joseph Smith, "None had ever been killed who abode by my counsel. At Hauns' Mill the brethren went contrary to my counsel; if they had not, their lives would have been spared" (History of the Church 5:137). I agree with Eric that it is a bit unfair to assume all of those graves along the trail to SLC were victims of persecution. How many of those grave sites belong to emigrants who never lived in Missouri or Illinois? I think the key phrase regarding these deaths is "no one knows." If no one knows it is irresponsible to say HUNDREDS perished. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:23:03 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2010/07/mormon-story-of-icelandic-persecution-collides-with-fact/#IDComment89707087