en-us https://www.intensedebate.com/users/6453500 Comments by Anuvai http://forward.com/#IDComment952390341 It is important to note that the joint Arab list calls for a "just solution to the Palestinian refugee issue based on the right of return as enshrined by the United Nations". Throughout the years of conflict, the term "just solution" of the refugee issue is often used, and many optimists understand that this means a negotiated solution that both sides could accept. The pessimists always answer that "a just solution" is simply a code word in the Arab dictionary for the return of the descendants of the refugees. Very surprisingly, the Arab list is clear about the term "just solution", and so for those optimistic readers who believe that some understanding could be reached - the intention is "the right of return" as the only definition of "justice". It's also interesting to note that there isn't any "right of return as enshrined by the United Nations". UNGA 194 tells us that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors SHOULD be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date". Just as "just solution" is understood as a codeword for the "right of return", so too the phrase "should be permitted" is understood as a codeword for "must be permitted" (i.e. right of return). The understanding/misunderstanding of words is also part of the conflict. According to the Oslo Agreements, a negotiated solution of the refugee issue will be reached in the final status that ends the conflict. Moreover, according to Oslo, the status of the settlements will also be agreed upon in the final status. Sadly, it turns out that the joint Arab list rejects the understandings of Oslo, an agreement that was signed by Mr Arafat himself in the presence of the international community. For the joint list, neither issue is a matter of negotiations - the settlements must be dismantled and the refugees must be allowed to return, period. It's really a pity. It's hard to imagine reaching a future agreement when the past agreements have no validity, even in the eyes of those who claimed to support these past agreements when they were signed. Sun, 22 Feb 2015 13:16:16 +0000 http://forward.com/#IDComment952390341 http://forward.com/articles/215160/french-chief-rabbi-haim-korsia-pushes-back-on-isra/#IDComment952382624 What is wrong with haredim? I think that anti-haredi prejudices are no different than any other hate-ideology. Sun, 22 Feb 2015 12:02:27 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/215160/french-chief-rabbi-haim-korsia-pushes-back-on-isra/#IDComment952382624 http://forward.com/articles/215160/french-chief-rabbi-haim-korsia-pushes-back-on-isra/#IDComment952082816 Telling us that “France without Jews is not France" is not a statement that explains what is best both for France and the French Jewish community. It is a statement that places the interest of France as supreme (it's the only interest that was defined): "It is not good for France that the Jews leave". Why should the Jews stay in France from a Jewish perspective? That doesn't appear in the article. So, if the chief rabbi is a servant of two masters, in the article he is presented as the servant only of the French Republic. In any case, the chief rabbi shouldn't advise the Jews to stay. That is a terrible mistake. He cannot possibly promise the community that the French Republic will protect them. He should remain silent. In the past, in Nazi Germany of 1933, the Jewish leadership called upon the Jewish community to remain in Germany, "our home". By 1938, it was clear that these leaders had betrayed their constituents. The situation in France is very different, of course - but, still, "seyag le-hokhma shetiqah" (protect your reputation of wisdom through silence). No one knows the dynamics of the present situation. Just imagine if a family decides to stay in France because the chief rabbi recommends it - and then some terrible thing happens to them. Fri, 20 Feb 2015 21:42:36 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/215160/french-chief-rabbi-haim-korsia-pushes-back-on-isra/#IDComment952082816 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215057/#IDComment952006353 But what would you suggest to show the Israelis in Seattle? In Birthright, the participant is showed sites that have meaning in the shaping of Jewish identity or in the understanding of Jewish history. Bringing a Birthright program to the Jewish community in the USA will have to include seeing sites of Jewish interest and importance, and these sites should be "wow". What is "wow" in the American Jewish world that we would like to share with the Israelis? It's a great idea to organize a reversed Birthright, but first we have to figure out what it is that we want to brag about. Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:52:56 +0000 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215057/#IDComment952006353 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215057/#IDComment952004686 Israel's best interest is that the Jews come and live in Israel - so, Bibi's call for aliya meets your bottom line. Your view is a bit confused. The Six-Day War is not the success story that enabled Israel's survival, as you understand things. The Six-Day War is the event that demonstrates the reality of the new State of Israel - a very organized, determined and capable society firmly rooted in its ancient soil. In other words, Israel first had risen up as a very successful state, and the Six-Day War was merely the opportunity for you to take notice. When you say that the American Jews rallied to the Zionist cause, you mean to say that many American Jews now took notice of Israel for the first time in their lives. American Jews do not identify with Zionism, i.e. they do not consider aliya to be an ideological obligation. They firmly believe in Jewish life within the framework of integration into American society - which is another ideology altogether.That's why you'll see so many articles here in the Forward criticizing Bibi's call for aliya. There will never be an article calling for aliya or defining it as the proper course of actions. American Jews call themselves "Zionists", meaning that they are "pro-Zionists" (they are happy that someone else lives in Israel). Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:44:03 +0000 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/215057/#IDComment952004686 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment952000158 It's hard to understand what it is that bothers you about Taglit. You know what it's all about, and if you're interested - you come along. If you're not interested - you decline the offer. If you believe that the offer negates the definition of Israel as a western country - then, fine, Israel is just another one of the Middle Eastern countries. If you think that Taglit is another edition of the Soviet Intourist style of tourism - well, that's fine as well. Israel is just another one of the Soviet-style countries. I rather doubt that you indeed see Israel as a non-western state, just as I doubt that you really see Taglit as an Intourist-style project. What you are expecting is that Taglit should be another platform in the ideological struggle against Zionism - paid for by those against whom the struggle is being waged. It's an interesting point of view - surely very altruistic - but, unfortunately, Taglit doesn't reach such high standards of mea culpa. It's a program that wishes to celebrate Israel, if such a thing could be imagined. It turns out that there are many people who wish to join the celebration, if such a thing could be imagined. Fri, 20 Feb 2015 13:17:42 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment952000158 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951995109 Yes, the settlements will be negotiated in the final status deal. And in the meanwhile? In the meanwhile, they have the right to exist - with the consent of the international community and with the signature of Mr Arafat. You'll have to wait and see what the final deal that ends the conflict will mean for the settlements. It's really unfortunate that you wish to nullify the validity of the Oslo Agreement. If you can nullify a signed agreement, then you are saying that there's no point in negotiating in the future. Only if we respect existing treaties can we have confidence in the signing of new treaties. So many pro-Palestinian activists like yourself claim that Oslo is irrrelevant - but in essence that is an anti-Palestinian point of view. There will not be a negotiated end of the conflict if the existing arrangements are considered void. Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:47:41 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951995109 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951759049 Well, you actually do care what I think. You always answer me on every single point. It is important to you to justify yourself. If you didn't care, then you would not have bothered to answer. It was important to you not to be defined as anti-Israel, and you made very interesting maneuvering to refrain from denying the accusation (because it's just true) while voicing a stern protest. That's not exactly "watch me not care". Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:05:26 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951759049 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951757757 "Stressing the pluralism of the American experience" is also ideological propaganda. It ignores the reality of the European settlement and the destruction of the native civilization. It assumes as self-evident that the making of American society was good - which is not exactly criticism even though the Americans take pride in being a democratic society. We all have our ideological "shtik" - including you. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:56:36 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951757757 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951755018 There is nothing wrong with announcing plans for constructing new settlements. No one has put the Palestinians "on a diet", so the statement of an official in this regard is just a silly statement. Someone called the latest Palestinian moves "diplomatic terrorism". So what? All three of your grievances have the same common denominator: Someone made an announcement. In the framework of running a conflict, throwing around words is actually a breath of fresh air. It's certainly much more pleasant than hearing an announcement on Hamas TV that "Palestine will be the graveyard of the Jewish people" (takun filastin maqbarat al-sha'ab al-yahudi) which I hear every so often. I wonder if such words ever reach your ears and receive a reaction (do you speak any Arabic, or did you tour around the West Bank in English). Here's my opinion about Taglit. A ten day trip to Israel is not going to change the reality of a lost battle for Jewish identity in America. The process of assimilation will continue unabated. However, it is interesting to note that so many American Jewish thinkers believe that a short trip to Israel will boost the quality of Jewish life in the Diaspora. It's an admission that Israel is a dramatic Jewish story, essentially "the only show in town" in today's Jewish world. It's good that young Jews have a chance to see such an historic Jewish setting, but the problems of assimilation will not be solved through a tour to the Kotel. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:41:05 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951755018 http://forward.com/articles/215037/dont-lecture-listen-to-europes-jews/#IDComment951747757 "Commenting after the attack, Jair Melchior, Copenhagen’s chief rabbi, flatly rejected the idea that Jews should leave Denmark...." Not too long ago, in 1933, there was an emergency meeting of all the Jewish organizations in Germany, and the leaders of German Jewry called upon their fellow Jews to remain in Germany which is "their home". Already by 1938, it was obvious that this call to stay was a grave mistake - and by 1945, the few surviving leaders understood that they had betrayed their constituents. Obviously, the situation today is very different. The threat of terror against European Jews is not comparable to Nazism, and the European states will endeavor to protect their Jewish communities. However, the lesson for Jewish leaders should be clear: Don't give advice. You don't know what will be. This is true for Rabbi Melchior, for the Forward and for PM Netanyahu. If the Jews wish to come and live in Israel - Rabbi Melchior, the Forward and PM Netanyahu should give their support and guidance. It is a good decision to come and live in Israel for many, many reasons. If they wish to stay in Europe, that's also very understandable, and deserving of our helping hand. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:58:47 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/215037/dont-lecture-listen-to-europes-jews/#IDComment951747757 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951664408 I think that your negative feelings toward Zionism pre-date your Taglit experience. You have said so in clear words. You say that I don't address the issue at hand, but that's absolutely untrue. The issue at hand is the issue that you raised. You had negative opinions about Zionism before coming on Taglit, and the point of the trip was to confirm this outlook. This is the issue that YOU raised, and I'm responding to it. I'm not impressed by the negative observations of a participant who had come on the program in order to make negative observations. You had to be a little bit sneaky to pass the interviews and to get your free plane ticket. Here, however, you are very straight to the point. You went to Israel with prejudices, and "amazingly" these prejudices were confirmed. I'm not impressed by your intellectual integrity. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 04:09:48 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951664408 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951660034 You won't "stoop" so low as to deny my insight that you're anti-Israel only because it's a true insight. Now you add that many of your generation have their doubts about Israel and Zionism. Well, what are these doubts? You have your "doubts" about Israel's legitimacy. Now you have a new challenge. Now you'll have to think of a new line in which you express outrage at my observation without actually saying that you deny its veracity. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 03:40:06 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951660034 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/214950/#IDComment951657354 I think that you might want to define the term "in droves". Israel is in the midst of a population explosion. It also seems to be attracting immigration in very substantial numbers. In 1920, for example, there were 60,000 Jews in the country. In 1948, the number had grown to 600,000. Now it is well over 6,000,000 - despite the conflict, the high taxes and the many possibilities of immigration. This dramatic rise in population has occurred in the face of "leaving the country in droves" and "the last one at the airport should please turn off the lights". No one is saying that Israel is safe, and surely no one is denying that some leave the country. But apparently there is something about Israel that seems to be going very nicely. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 03:22:29 +0000 http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/214950/#IDComment951657354 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951649079 You say that you don't object to Israel's existence, but it's not so. You don't have a problem with the existence of a state that is called "Israel" if it's an entirely different state than the existing State of Israel ("heavily reformed" was your way of saying "an entirely different political entity"). However, the state that was founded by the Zionist Movement - the Jewish state - is not legitimate in your eyes. Zionism is illegitimate in your eyes, and so is the state that it founded. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:22:37 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951649079 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951646336 I'm very untalented and confused, so I suppose that I'm part of the problem. But if I got a free Birthright trip to see the 50 Promised Lands, it might help set me straight. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 02:03:58 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951646336 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951644523 In your one reaction, you tell me that I can assume whatever I want - but you avoid actually denying that you are anti-Israel. In this new reaction, you tell me that some accusations are so unfounded that they don't deserve a denial - but you avoid yet again making a clear statement of rejecting the obvious insight that you are anti-Israel. You want to leave the impression that the insight is unworthy of mention, but you will not go on record with an outright lie by actually denying the accusation. Listen, rszeh - anyone who defines Zionism is such evil terms as you do is anti-Israel. Zionism is,after all, the movement that founded the State of Israel. You're clever and experienced, so you understand that a statement of your being anti-Israel pulls the carpet out from under your feet. All your declarations lose their credibility, obviously, because of your prejudice. So, you won't state that you are anti-Israel, trying to leave the impression that you are merely "critical". But you will not deny it either, because you are indeed anti-Israel (and you don't want to lie about it). But of course your anti-Israel, and you went on your trip Israel with your prejudices - and with the intention to verify them. Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:50:17 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951644523 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951545130 You seem to have a very strange outlook, Lev. It's not that you are really interested in coaching youngsters to be critical; rather, you are expecting the Taglit program itself to be part of the propaganda campaign against Israel. I doubt if you would have expected an educational program of any other ideology to present itself as it is seen by its detractors. A Reform Judaism summer camp is not going to give a hostile presentation of Reform Judaism so that its youngsters should have a "critical approach". Surely, you wouldn't expect that hostile kids would be given a scholarship so that they could participate in the summer camp in order to make trouble. But, when it comes to the anti-Israel crowd, there's always this twist of logic. You seem to expect that a hostile presentation of Israel should be given, and a hostile audience be allowed to participate as if this is the way of the world. Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:24:57 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951545130 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951536836 Since you had already concluded that Zionism is based on all these terrible things, and since you were disgusted by Israel from the start - why did you accept the free plane ride and come on the Taglit program? Don't you feel disgusted with yourself accepting presents from people whom you can't stand? Now, that you have mentioned "intellectual dishonesty" - how is it possible that you define Zionism as racism, you are disgusted with Israel, yet you can claim that you don't object to Israel's existence? Come on. Obviously a person who sees Zionism as an illegitimate ideology objects to the existence of the state that Zionism founded. Your denial is intellectual dishonesty, and your accepting presents from those whom you regard to be evil people is also an act of dishonesty. Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:32:01 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951536836 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951533134 There's no crisis in American Jewry. As an avid reader of the Forward, you surely have noticed that the only crisis in Jewish life today is in Israel. It's a "Promised Land" in which the Jews have to make tough decisions and face the promise of terrible criticism for having made the wrong decisions. Who in his right mind would want to wish "next year in Jerusalem" (and risk it coming true)? I would suggest removing it from your prayerbook. I'm impressed by the Forward's concept of "Our Promised Lands", and I read the series very avidly. Did you know, for example, that many of our latkes are from Idaho potatoes? That's certainly very significant in the shaping of Hanukka awareness. Let's figure out a itinerary of ten days in which we could show the young Jews of the world the promise of a care-free and significant Jewish life never-seen before in the annals of Jewish history. Do you have a good dictionary of Hebrew? It's important. Try to find Even-Shoshan's dictionary. It's very old, but it's really the best (in includes a quote from the sources in every entry). You might want to find a dictionary of Biblical Hebrew as well. Avnion has published an excellent one, explaining every word in the Bible. Obviously, for the language of the Talmud, you might want to get your hands on Jastrow's masterpiece. Wed, 18 Feb 2015 13:08:47 +0000 http://forward.com/articles/214734/start-birthright-with-younger-teens/#IDComment951533134