en-us http://www.intensedebate.com/users/270272 Comments by germit http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/for-a-more-enjoyable-commenting-experience/#IDComment12430921 Titanic: now you've really got me worried; what about ONE cup o joe in the AM, then switch to tea.....? Show me some mercy with SOME caffeine in it.....PLEASE. Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:00:39 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/for-a-more-enjoyable-commenting-experience/#IDComment12430921 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12316135 ISSAC;s point, and others have made it, seems to be inconsistent to me, here's how: on the one hand, a person is to recieve greater glory and exaltation based on obedience to eternal principles and commandments, just as GOD Himself has (so the story goes). So, the greater the obedience= the higher the position. Not saying I agree with that, but I think I 'get it'. THEN, Isaac says essentially, my father, grand-father, etc. are greater than me BECAUSE THEY PRECECED ME. The LDS seem to favor earthly analogies in this : what if my earthly father is the Unibomber, orthe BTK killer ?? Is he still greater than I , even if I extend to him the honor due to a father ? As for feeling uncomfortable, well you should, becoming a god is idolatry. You have something of a conscience. GERmIT Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:18:28 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12316135 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12313543 Well, I like your post but here is the deal: history is replete with people who claim that their experiences/epiphanies are a whole lot like Moses, Abraham, Paul, etc. This list of "God came to me and told me...." is long. So how would we know that YOUR claim is legit, and Mary Baker Eddy's , or Warren Jeff's is not so legit?? Do I depend on God visiting me bodily, as He supposedly did JS numerous times ?? Or do I just take someone's word for it (and they ALL claim to be special servants/prophets/apostles. You reference the "power of God through revelation"....but you aren't telling me what that is, tho I get the idea of God somehow meeting (spiritually ??) with you as HE did the ancients. Can you add to that ? Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:44:14 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12313543 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12311823 DOF: those are good points but for me, it comes down to this: do I want to trust the Mormon 'take' on what constitutes the word of God, or the early church fathers. I know VOOK, among others is very convinced that early church history leans your way, but I think/believe that the same God who had the words penned was able to preserve them for future use thru the councils and have the basic truths re-stated for church-wide unity as (hold your nose........) the creeds. It doesn't matter to me that the authors themselves did not know what they penned was "scripture" or "Gods word" AT THE TIME. Shoot, not all of the D & C was written like that, am I wrong about that ?? It's been re-stated MANY times, but let me throw in: the councils did NOT decide what WAS Scripture, they RATIFIED what was ALREADY SEEN and USED as authoratative throughout the church universal, More later. GERMIT Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:11:19 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12311823 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12307691 DOF: I knew someone smarter than I would pipe up: read Gundek's comments about the Bible below. I know it may seem "circular" , but the Bible testifies to the Bibles ability to be that benchmark.. I think that's GOD Himself at work how things are. And of course, it (the Bible) has not lost its lustre in 2000 yrs of careful scrutiny.....that counts for something as well. Good job GUNDY. GERMIT Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:52:55 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12307691 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12307538 Amanda: you wrote text is verified by the Holy Ghost, not the other way around I have a guess and a hunch what you are talking about, but I'd prefer you put this (verification process) in your own words. I realize we are talking about dealing with a Loving Personality (God Himself) so I'm not trying to make this 'ultra-rational', but I would like to understand what it is you (and DOF, perhaps, since he liked your post) are talking about. THANKS Germit Tue, 9 Dec 2008 14:33:30 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12307538 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12301112 DOF: I appreciate your comments. I used myself as a target of concern to underline the fact that as ev christians we are NOT singling out the LDS in advocating for an OBJECTIVE benchmark. There are a zillion privatized 'words from the Lord" out there, I'm sure you've been exposed to a few dozen , or more, yourself. Hence the caution. Hopefully CAUTION does not morph into : God is done speaking, or worse yet, "God never spoke". I'm not directing that possibility to you, if anything, that might be more of an ev. christian liability (potentially). I believe that JS is basically responsible for (not the word for word AUTHOR of) both the BofM and D&C. IF he was not a true prophet of God......well, connect the dots. I believe the bible to be COMPLETE, not in the sense that it contains the whole mind of God (all of God's thoughts), but in the sense that it is the only book He has or will give us that rises to the level of scripture. I'll have to think on how to explain that.........or maybe stall and whine and let Lautensack do it......just kidding......sort of. The Jews (and others in the NT: Luke, for instance) had no idea AT THE TIME, that what they were writing was to become scripture, even when they were sure that the LORD's voice and will was being spoken or written. God knew, and had HIS hand on that, just as HE had HIS hand in the councils that ratified canonicity. The best way , or at least ONE way, to convince a Jew that the NT is his/her business is to point out how marvelously the OT points to Jesus Christ. IF they can begin to accept that fact, the rest will follow. Tue, 9 Dec 2008 02:32:16 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12301112 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12287054 Ralph: if the corredt , God intended scenario is that all are to be married and have kids, what is Jesus talking about in Matt 19:12; For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mothers womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are ALSO eunuchs who MADE THEMSELVES eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." Comments??? Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:34:17 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12287054 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12283139 Actually, I'd say most of us are not so concerned about OUR testimony being discounted as much as God's testimony, given in HIS book: AARON wrote above: Christians would rather receive God's testimony about himself rather than receive any man's personal testimony (including our own) about God. note the phrase, 'including their own'. I am as nervous about MY OWN personal testimony being potentially off base as I am of yours. Hence the need for a reliable benchmark (the Bible) to test everything against. Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:05:28 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12283139 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12281256 Ralph: have you considered the possibility that God wanted to express the FREEDOM that believers have in being married, or NOT, and therefore the fact that Paul says "I have no commandment...." is another way of GOD saying "I, GOD, have no commandment on this as well.." this does not have to contradict being fruitfull and multiplying: that was stated as God's overarching goal for man, not as what EVERY individual has to do physically; if it were such, Paul is very WRONG in not re-stating that "commandment". Is that your view, that not only was this Paul's opinion, but that he is going against "be fruitful and multiply"....or maybe Paul's understanding was weak and flawed ..??? Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:20:57 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12281256 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12273242 DOF: interesting post; could you flesh out your comment Doctrine is base on revelation from God. Be as specific as you can, including how this is/isn't the same as personal experience and/or testimony. thanks GERMIT Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:36:34 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/mormon-coffee-tabletalk-friday-december-3rd-in-west-jordan-ut/#IDComment12273242 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12228323 I appreciate the correction. Why the possibility of going beyond your 'parents' is not there seems illogical to me and an inconsistency in your theology. It also begs the question of how you know you can't or won't. Was this view JS' and BY's as well ?? Just wondering. Thanks for the adjustment. If your view is correct, every subsequent god will have a slightly diminished glory than the one who preceded him/her. Do you see where this is headed ?? This seems to be improvement in reverse. Sun, 7 Dec 2008 05:28:00 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12228323 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12175874 Gundek: you wrote It seems narcissistic to assume that the creature can in any way approach the Creator without the Mediator and the indwelling of the Spirit. Actually, as far as I know the LDS very much believe that they need a Mediator and of course are very keen on the indwelling of the H.S. One huge difference (among many) is that they believe (though this apparantly isn't brought up much) that with this divine help, they can match and perhaps outstrip their parents (Father/Mother). This idea we see as absurd and heresy. For them, they see that as part of salvific promises (provided the right amount of obedience is there). I can only do a short post on this system, but I'm pretty sure there is an anthropomorphic principle (towards God) that is a key culprit in all this: trying to make what is true for human situations/parenthood, true for God and HIS children. WRONGO. Fri, 5 Dec 2008 23:08:24 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12175874 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174867 Sharon and others: Sharon asked "Are the teachings found in that manual still true (according to Mormonism) today ?" Is this a fair question, in response to that question: "Does it not depend on what God tells THIS YEAR's prophet and generation through revelation ??" I'm not trying to make the LDS seem more flexible than they really are, so I'm wondering aloud if my question is accurate or not , according to the LDS outlook. Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:34:42 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174867 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174345 Mobaby: I think you are very much onto something with your post; I'm still new at understanding the Mormon perspective and culture but what you're saying rings true with me: for very PRAGMATIC reasons I think what you're saying will happen, the "becoming a God" thing is a crummy evangelistic intro. And the secret temple stuff also has outlived its usefullness. I'd say they will BOTH be dropkicked quietly as 'new' revelation is given and the LDS shift into something else that attracts more potential converts. Wtih our culture pushing globalism, ecumanism, and tolerance, these weird 'distinctives' will become vestigal parts to a Mormon past. That's my take. And of course, history (King Follett, etc) will quietly get rewritten and updated. GERMIT Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:45:09 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12174345 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12169109 Gloria: the thot hit me as I read your post: you HAVE experienced something of a "progression" with your GOD, not that HE changed, but your understanding of HIM certainly did and does; what a JI-NORMOUS upgrade; you must feel like it's Christmas come early and often. Blessings on your, and my, every discovery of the real Jesus and Heavenly Father. GERMIT Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:49:28 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12169109 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12157759 DOF: you have a reply about 4 or 5 entries below, the system shuffled it down a bit. THAnKS Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:06:11 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12157759 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12157734 DOF: reread Lautensack's comment below this one and add "Amen" for Germit. In your church, the tough questions, when they are answered at all seem to be answered by 1)hard working guys like yourself on blogs or BYU or something like that. Your leadership does a very good job of "laying low", that's as nicely as I can put it. There were a FEW times when Jesus flat would not reply to someone (Pilate, the Pharisees), MOST of the time HE fielded alll kinds of questions from all kinds of people, NOT just from HIS inner circle. That's what I meant by the 'intentions of the NT'. I just don't see that in your upper levels. They should be taking YOUR classes and videos. Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:03:37 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12157734 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12141701 You wrote: "Mormonism is not theology driven...." that, as far as I can tell , is the understatement of the century. Look closely at their history, and I THINK you'll find pricious few theologians, I would even say that they discount the exercise as working AGAINST faith: the more we KNOW, the less we trust.....not that I've ever seen that WRITTEN anywhere official, but I catch that from those who post here; even apologetics is kind of love/hate, the farther something is from PERSONAL testimony and subjective experience, the more it seems to be held with suspicion. That's why the will QUOTE C.S. Lewis, but they are not likely to PRODUCE a C.S. Lewis. Blessings, GERMIT Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:18:25 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/the-main-claim-of-mormonism/#IDComment12141701 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12141606 I readily believe that 'becoming a god ' is not high on your list or even that this is not TODAY a prominent part of LDS theology. It sure seemed to command more of Joseph's attention, and that to me is significant. Maybe that's too radically different for today's prophet, I don't kow why what your founder thot major would fall into the periphery. You might want to rethink your statement about God revealing or not revealing HIS mysteries. Which of HIS mysteries did HE keep hidden during the NT period ?? You need to find a more sovereign God. Blessings, GERmIT Fri, 5 Dec 2008 05:08:02 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/12/progression-to-godhood-mormonisms-god/#IDComment12141606