en-us http://www.intensedebate.com/users/620153 Comments by Turtler http://bigpeace.com/elcid/2011/01/29/why-protests-in-egypt-but-not-in-iran/#IDComment124611960 Not only does the idiot recognize simple reality, he doesn't even recognize simple grammar. Sat, 29 Jan 2011 23:24:37 +0000 http://bigpeace.com/elcid/2011/01/29/why-protests-in-egypt-but-not-in-iran/#IDComment124611960 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment109275491 Hate and violence? Yes, quite so. However, you always forget that neither are necessarily bad or evil, it depends on WHO you hate, WHY, and what you DO with it. Were it not for the hatred of the Nazi Reich for its numerous crimes, Central Europe would never have been freed from Hitler's yoke. Were it not for the hate for the crimes of regimes that stole, murdered, and embezzeled against their own people while claiming it was for their betterment, the Iron Curtain would still remain. Were it not for the application of violence, Liberty would be extinct. Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. And just as violence and hate are sins when directed against the innocent, they become virtues when used for liberation. And just as the tone of one's speech does not invalidate the content of their comments, so to does your obfustication and poor Tu Quoque attempts fail to do anything but dig your hole deeper. Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:45:10 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment109275491 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment109275061 You come here slinging ad-hominems and absolute catastrophes in logic that would have any ITL teacher kick you out the door, and you have the nerve to try and lecture ME about not using nice language? And I love how you answered NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE OF MY POINTS that utterly shreaded your pathetic obscurantism. You think you are taken seriously after such naked stupidity and intellectual cowardice? And finally, you revert to attempting to use idiotic slogans as a replacement for logical thought. Say what you will about my language, but at least I KNOW what I am talking about and am not afraid to lay it out in great detail. And you think you and your fellows ever wanted peace, knave? The last time that happened was when Lenin took power in 1917 promising "Peace, Land, and Bread" and promptly delivered none of them. Selfishness? To some degree, yes. But at least we are honest about it and usually rope it in with honorable bounds. Can you say the same for you and your ilk? Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:41:20 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment109275061 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108335289 It is. And will the OP PLEASE shut the hell up? The moral high ground is not granted, it is EARNED. And we have earned it and must maintain it by not slinking down to the level of the old violent mobs of old. Sun, 7 Nov 2010 06:37:57 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108335289 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108335109 Modern day Socialism embraced despotism when it abandoned its supposed democratic kin to the mercy of Lenin's butchers in 1917. Kerensky was your great chance to prove that a Socialist nation without democratic and/or Bourgeoise traditions to restrain it could in fact govern democratically and justly. Guess what? It FAILED, in no small part because you and your ideological ancestors threw Kerensky and the moderates under the axe of Lenin and his German backers. To this day, nobody has bothered to recant the sabotage, the undermining, and the general destruciton you and your ideological ancestors have wrecked in your efforts to bring down the foundations of Western Civilization by either the bayonet or the ballot. And until you do, there is no point in seeing you lot as anything other than a fifth column, as you have made sure to villify those that have tried to speak out against the statist totalitarianism of your mainstream political thinking (Orwell was HATED not only by the Stalinist sock puppets, but also by the Trotskyites and the Anarco-Socialists), for example). So stop acting as though you and your ilk have down nothing wrong. Some of us actually have studied history enough to know better. Sun, 7 Nov 2010 06:36:00 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108335109 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108334725 I notice how you give NOT A SINGLE FUCING EXAMPLE to support your claims. And I already saw that poor excuse for a site. It isn't worth the time it would take to rebutt it. Sun, 7 Nov 2010 06:31:24 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108334725 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108283025 And if you think I take pleasure in that, in tearing you down and writing in such a manner, you are incorrect. It makes me FUCKING WEEP! Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:48:11 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108283025 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108282997 So, in the end, all you have in this post is your praising of inept and declining systems used by fairly prosperous nations with strong Democratic and Middle Class (in short: non Socialistic and non totalitarian) roots as "working fine" in spite of the steady decline it has seen, all while mountains of corpses and a scarred history of torture and depravation that is the most intense in modern history if not ever loom in the foreground amassed by Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Mao, Ho, the Kims, and countles others which you furiously try to deny were in any way connected with the Socialism in whose name most of those atrocities were committed while blaming Capitalism for villifying poor Socialism. That one post could be such a succinct example of the history of your entire ideology is remarkable. Armed with nothing more than good intentions (I hope, at least) and a strong will to continue on in spite of all evidence, you steadfastl stand tall in the face of overwhelming proofs on both flanks, from the dysfunctional welfare states you praise to the outright nightmares you refuse to even consider. Truly, we have learned previous little from the events of the past century. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:48:00 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108282997 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108282674 And finally, you state it is hard to discuss Socialism without first defining it, and then you proceed to NOT DEFINE IT while blaming corporate profiteers, as though THEY are somehow more powerful than they were in the Guilded Age, as though THEY were the greatest threat to liberty even THEN! It then falls unto me to do what you refused to do. And so my personal definition of Socialism is a system in which power is taken from the people and the autonomous organs of government and given to the state under the presumption that said centralization will yield better results and more efficiency than Capitalism. Care to debate about THAT? No? Why am I not so surprised? Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:45:04 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108282674 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108281982 And I love the conflation of government run and operated public subsidies with Socialism, which while not entirely without merit (after all, Socialism was supposed to set up these thing so they would more or less organically run the state) but ultimately ignores the fact that more often than not these organizations were philanthropic and not infrequently capitalistic in nature rather than government run, much less all out Socialism. Were the British Colonial Police Socialistic? And obviously you have fundamentally mischaracterized the basic tenants of Socialism, at least in practice. Pretty much every single Socialist philosopher since BEFORE Marx and Engels pointed out that the state should not be run by the people at least directly, but should instead by run autonomously for their benefit. This is no trivial mistake. And why is it that in spite of there being supposedly many types of Socialism- Cuban, Venezuelan, Soviet, Chinese, German, etc, in your words- ALL of the ones you have mentioned have followed similar patterns of decline into dependence upon the state and tyranny, exploitation, and despotism (though undoubtably through different means)? Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:38:53 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108281982 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108281244 And while you blame "capitalist scaremongering" for corrupting the supposedly pure image of socialism and generic corruption for failures identified with it, have you ever fricking asked WHY corruption and socialism seemed to cooincide so frequently, PARTICULARLY in nations that were fairly successful prior to the implementation of a Socialist government (Poland, Romania, the Baltic States, Hungary, Romania, Southern Indochina, Northern Korea, Cuba, etc etc etc). Why is it that these nations went from respectable powers if not powerhouses to utter depravation that was even worse than several of the actual corrupt but non-Socialist banana republics? WHY? And while we are on that note, WHY is it that so many self-proclaimed Socialist governments not restrained by Democratic (and usually Bourgeoise) traditions become blood soaked monstrosities like we saw in the USSR, China, Indochina, and Germany? Is that ALSO just a cooincidence? Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:32:43 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108281244 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108280725 Sure, they aren't HELL to live in, but they are still on a slow decline and it's only as slow as it is because they have outsourced several responsibilities (PARTICULARLY Defense) to us.Without Uncle America manning the lines of contact and staffing their bases, they would be even WORSE off than they are now. It isn't calamity, but if you have to extend your definition of "working fine" to include nations that are on welfare themselves, you already are off the twig, particularly since long term projections show them getting WORSE rather than better in practically every factor wroth noting (particularly population). Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:28:44 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108280725 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108278829 Does this really deserve the effort of rebutting it? No, no it doesn't. But I will do so anyway. Firstly, Socialism does NOT work "fine" in Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, or Bongo-Bongo in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Don't get me wrong: it sure as hell is BETTER than it is pretty much everywhere else, but that in and of itself should in no way be mistaken for working "fine." Have you seen the gross expenditures of those nations, or their downright massive amounts of debt? We might owe more money, but they owe a VASTLY higher proportion of their GDP due to spending on extremely costly and lybranthine social welfare issues, which only sinks deeper into the morass of red ink with each passing generation. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE of the nations you pointed out is suffering major shortages in their vaunted heathcare and welfare systems that result in grossly inadaquate resources for virtually any situation they encounter, brain drain, and permanent rates of unemployment that one would normally identify with a state in the middle of a depression. ALL. THE. TIME. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 22:13:08 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108278829 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108276151 So not only are you a fool, you are a proud one at that. Begone, knave. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:59:17 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108276151 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108275916 You care to talk about human misery and death? How DARE you knave. How DARE you come here to preach to us, to preach to me- who has seen the wreckage of the Gulags, the Concentration Camps, the Collective Farms, the Torture Cells, the swaths of land holding the mortal remains of those sacrificed on or off the field of battle for the delusions you share- about such things when you willfully champion the beliefs that have in just over a century killed more than any other ideological family in HISTORY. How DARE you, and God DAMN you, for if there is anything remotely like a just God in the world such arrogant hubris should steeply lead to hell. You are an immature child tossing around words you do not understand about concepts you cannot grasp agianst people you cannot begin to appreciate in the service of an ideology whose horror you cannot even begin to fathom. You are contemptable in every meaning of the word, and you do not deserve the degree of attention I have just given you. Go back and study real history, and maybe, *just* MAYBE, you might learn something of the exact magnitude of your errors. I will not hold my breath, though. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:58:28 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108275916 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108275126 And for all your pretensions to be the next great wave, any who has actually studied it would know just how hollow your posturing is. You have been "coming out of the closet" and traditional Liberalism has been dyang for literally a century and a half, according to you and your ilk. No matter the time and no matter the situation, Socialism, the death of Capitalism and Liberalism, and the rotting away of the foundations of Western Civilization are always just over the ridge, in next decade or next year. As they have been according to you nad your ilk since the mid 19th century. You lot are like some of the old doomsday cults that keep pushing back the date of armageddon steadily and unhtinkingly year after year while still insisting that it is just over the horizon. Not only is it a fitting comparison of what would happen if your promised date ever DID arrive, but it also shows how utterly deluded you knaves are. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:55:16 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108275126 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108273405 And ironically, I probably got of *EASY*! I was a foreigner, and a Westerner at that. If I went missing or was imprisoned, I had my contacts with home to bail me out. Several of my Singaporean associates, however, were jailed indefinitely and grossly mistreated on virtually no basis at all (and certainly not one related to national security). In short: I KNOW what you so flippantly claim to know. And I KNOW how it really is like. And that is why I *ASSURE* you if the US was like this, you would *NOT* be here writing this inane drivel in the first place! Your pathetic attempts to act oppressed are an INSULT to the REAL oppressed of the world, and only showcase your gross lack of knowledge, perspective, maturity, and honor. You are not worthy to shine Lee Kwan Yew's boots, much less those of people who actually do NOT deserve to go straight to hell, and you certainly are NOT worthy to so much as LOOK IN THE GENERAL DIRECTION of my victimized assoeciates. For all your ranting and raving against the supposedly despotic man, you would not survive an actual despot, They would simply wipe you away like they were using the brooms of Ivan the Fearsome's secret police. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:48:00 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108273405 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108270966 And this is before we get into the fact that the ENTIRE nation has been under marshal law that makes the Patriot Act look like something proposed by AI! During my time in Singapore after refusing discrete demands for bribes by other names, I had been stalked by the same cars and men (I know this because I tried to stick tell-tails on them when possible), I had recieved multiple threats against my life, my property, my coworkers's lives, my wellbeing, company property, and my freedom. I had even gotten into a fistfight provoked by a man we soon learned was a plainclothes policeman with the intention of setting me up for charges. I had soon found out that meetings and disclosures I and my company had made under guarentee of privacy were in fact widely distributed and generally talked abou. I had been spied upon, bugged, harassed, nearly framed, and attacked. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:38:02 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108270966 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108269566 And THEN we talk about things like the effective outlawing of any rally WHATSOEVER due to a convoluted permit system that has not been USED AT ALL for over half a century. ANY meeting in public is a crime until said otherwise, and save for party apparatchiks, they NEVER say otherwise. And then we have the fact that like the worst stereotypes of robber barons of old taken up to the next level, Lee Kwan Yew and his party literally pit new immigrants against their own citizens for jobs, housing, education,and pretty much everything, a fact that has in fact triggered numerous violent incidents between the two (sometimes even INCITED by ranking members of the PAP who promptly get off scot free), all in the name of cheap labor. And speaking of which, we have the government imposing strict wage controls and the effective outlawing of unions amongst the populace. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:32:23 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108269566 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108268161 It isn't some insult to be used in backwater chat forums, it is concrete. It is the wiretap you have on EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. YOUR. PHONES. FROM. THE. SECOND. YOU. ENTER. THE . COUNTRY. Wrap your little head around that for a second, knave. You think the Patriot Act is bad? In truth, it is, but no worse than other measures we have taken to safeguard our liberty since the Revolution, and the fact that it is not frequently abused is shown by your continued presence here. There? If you say ONE WORD to criticise Lee Kwan Yew or the PAP, they at BEST sue you for Libel in spite of the fact that the Singaporean constitution supposedly FORBIDS wiretapped evidence without a warrent (and no, they do NOT get a warrent: at best, they get one when it is time for the TRIAL rather than beforehand as they legally are OBLIGED to). And this is before we talk about the possibilities of being arrested if not caned, often after the most farcial of trials if that. Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:27:08 +0000 http://bigjournalism.com/libertychick/2010/11/06/msnbcs-lawrence-odonnell-proudly-proclaims-i-am-a-socialist/#IDComment108268161