Ahh - Thanks Natthiko! - Ya - it's all a bit sad really isn't it...

Here is a further article - written by a concerned lay supporter Lisa - for those who are interested in reading perspectives that are well thought out.
Missing Role Models for Women in Buddhism - http://www.box.net/shared/static/hi8vjj674r.doc

I'm happy to put it on Sujato's blog.

Thanks Lisa - here is the link - I see that indeed we've been thinking along the same lines - Interesting you mention the Catholic Church - there is much resonance there with the situation in the Thai Forest Sangha. Perhaps no coincidence given the influence from of the Vatican on theThai monarchy at the beginning of the 19th Century. Ajahn Sujato has done some interesting research on that.

Your focus on role modelling is really important - part of the heart of th issue also.

With your permission I'll put the link on the Women & the Forest Sangha face book group. It may also be good to put in on Sujato's blog.

I didn't put your surname on the article in case you preferred to stay more anon.
Very best wishes - T
ps - I've pasted this at the end of the is blog roll - in case it gets missed in this side discussion.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/hi8vjj674r.doc

Lisa - if you send it to me at office@dharmagiri.org I'll create a link for it.
Also put 'For the attention of Thanissara' on subject line - Thanks. Look forward to reading it.

Hi Lisa,
I appreciate your depth of concern, and I agree, for Buddhism to have a more secure future in the West the issue of gender discrimination needs to be addressed.

I think submitting your article to Present is a good idea. Yes, do send it as a link, would it work to put the link here?

There is clearly a need for some forum for sharing more considered articles/ thoughts beyond blog spaces. Maybe the editors of Present may have some ideas.

I'm not sure what such forums would look like. But usually when a need reaches a more critical mass, the way forward becomes apparent.

Hi Ginny,

This touches into the wider cultural context of Buddhism where men are valued over women as vehicles of spiritual transmission and as conduits for spiritual blessing. In Thailand monks are valued in part because it is believed that the offering of material goods to them increases good karma.

They act as spiritual bank accounts, so to speak, for future lives. Nuns are not seen in this light at all. Giving them material support doesn’t translate into ‘merit.’ I would think there is a similar dynamic going on within Tibetan Buddhism.

Until these kinds of views are really investigated and debunked, we will continue to see nuns under supported in their Asian contexts. Definitely this is not a view we should encourage or transplant to the West. Also this intention around dana distorts the purity of offering itself.

In case anyone would like to read further. I am posting links to a relevant site: Alliance for Bhikkhunis - and their recent publication: Present.

It also includes a further exploration I wrote about the place of nuns and marginalization of the feminine in Buddhist monasticism -
In particular the difficulty of the 5 points - called:
Take it or Leave it and the Ground Between - http://bhikkhuni.net/present/spring2010/present-g...

Present - on line publication from Alliance of Bhikkhunis (AfB) http://bhikkhuni.net/present/index.html

Alliance of Bhikkhunis (AfB) - http://www.bhikkhuni.net/

Appreciate your engagement with this issue, that you have been touched enough to write something yourself. Do you have a link to your article. Would you feel comfortable with sharing it here?

I'm glad Ajahn Amaro is talking about these issues, particularly as he will be taking over from Ajahn Sumedho at Amaravati in the UK. I'm not sure what that means, but he'll be in a difficult position and will be inheriting a conflicted 'relational field' after recent events.

Regards the five points, they need to be chucked out.

These are great suggestions Jitindriya. I think direct questions and continuing to keep the discussion alive is very important. As many have said on this blog that gender discrimination is simply not an option in our contemporary societies. And so it will impact the ability of Buddhism and Buddhist monasticism to be really root in the West if this issue is not consciously addressed.

I agree there is a great difference between saying what is expedient to appease supporters and being willing to authentically respond from a deeper ethic which may put one at odds with monastic elders and peers.

Jitindriya brings up another important and tricky area of consideration. The balance between respecting the lineage from which teachings and training is handed on - and the need to be free from the ties to the tradition when it starts to undermine a healthy transition into a new culture.

I would say that the Forest Sangha is at that juncture in the West. An overly strong allegiance to the power pyramid of the Thai monastic hierarchy is obstructing a more mature and healthy process of consensus and feed back, which would be more in line with the Buddha's original intention.

We are all contributing to the Buddhism that arises here in the West - if we just take on traditions without true inquiry into the health of them, then we do a disservice to future generations.

So in short - keep the questions going!