That tree you refer to — was it an evergreen or a deciduous tree? Are there any still growing in the world, do you know? Or if not, is there any fossil record of it? LOL

I think if you will be objective, you will see that it is, by the very structure of its name, obviously an allegorical tree. And if you study primitive people and their religions, you will find that their religious beginnings are widely known to have their "roots" in the flora of the forest, i.e., plants and especially fungi. It is extremely likely that the origins of the religious experience are almost universally (back in the shadows of prehistory, of course, in the cases of major religions of today, but still observable in the jungles of South America, Pacific islands and Central Asia) shamanistic and predicated on pharmacology, the experience of which challenges the mind's ability to think rationally, and is an excellent breeding ground for elaborate fantastic visions. The greatest likelihood is the "the tree of knowledge" was about 4 inches high, red in color, and speckled with the flecks of the volva that burst as it grew out of the ground. http://www.ambrosiasociety.org/the_fruit_of_the_tree_of_life.html

I just laid a straight-edge on the thread and confirmed my recollection that the post of mine which you contest was a reply to Paul [the one beginning, "It's clear that Jefferson (and the other founders) . . ."], not to you, although it is rather unclear in this website, unlike others that mention the antecedent poster.

I was intending to bolster your opinion contrary to Paul, meaning to say that if he thinks better Greek can prove that miracles are realistic, he's not thinking at all. I'm with TJ — a "post-Christian" who greatly admires the classy class-warfare of Jesus and his contempt for the rich powerful and heartless Pharisees, but there's no way those miracles happened. They are accretions to any real history that may or may not be found in those pages.

Thanks for asking. You may or may not have noticed my other reply to you, where I offered evidence from TJ's letters where he quotes at length (in Greek) from Homer to prove the sagacity of New Jersey farmers.

Did you see that? I had assumed we were on the same page, especially with your pointing out the scrupulous absence of any mention of God in the Constitution. I might add that the Declaration, which is mostly TJ's hand, does mention the "Creator", but what does that say? Just as "creature" is a functional term, as in "the president is a creature of the Constitution", so is "creator" a term that applies to anything that leads to existence, whether a process of evolution as is clear to me, or a guy with a long white beard riding on a four-faced cherub. TJ was discreet in that regard, not alarming the gentry by outright denial, but avoiding naming any particular traditional deity. Clinically sanitary.

It might surprise you to learn that, whereas the account of Jesus' life and ministry passed through many hands before it reached our eyes, including the many Councils of august fathers, who felt themselves adequate to the task of deciding which of the very many books extant were The Word Of GOD and which fell short of that mark, that some in this modern age (which I mean to have included Jefferson's generation) suspect that not all of what we have, the Textus Receptus Omnibus, was really a flawless faithful recording of events as they actually took place. Where Jefferson had never seen snails melt [Ps. 58:8], he may have been skeptical of David's zoology, and as to rising from the dead, knowledge of Greek scarcely makes one equal to the task.

In his letter from Paris of Jan. 15th, 1787, to St. John De Crevècoeur, he wrote about how "to make the wheel of one peice [sic]. The Jersey farmers did it by cutting a young sapling, and bending it, while green and juicy, into a circle; and leaving it so till it became perfectly seasoned." And he means "New Jersey". He goes on to say "The writer in the paper supposes the English workman got his idea from Homer. But it is more likely that the Jersey farmer got the idea from thence, because ours are the only farmers who can read Homer" and then he quotes the passage where "Homer's words are (comparing a young hero killed by Ajax to a poplar felled by a workman) —

ὃ δ᾽ ἐν κονίῃςι [sic] χαμαὶ πέσεν αἴγειρος ὣς ἥ ῥά τ᾽ ἐν εἱαμενῇ ἕλεος μεγάλοιο πεφύκει λείη, ἀτάρ τέ οἱ ὄζοι ἐπ᾽ ἀκροτάτῃ πεφύασι: τὴν μέν θ᾽ ἁρματοπηγὸς ἀνὴρ αἴθωνι σιδήρῳ ἐξέταμ᾽, ὄφρα ἴτυν κάμψῃ περικαλλέϊ δίφρῳ: ἣ μέν τ᾽ ἀζομένη κεῖται ποταμοῖο παρ᾽ ὄχθας.

literally thus 'he fell on the ground, like a poplar, which has grown, smooth, in the wet part of a great meadow; with it's [sic, as ff.] branches shooting from it's summit. But the Chariot-maker with his sharp axe, has felled it, that he may bend a wheel for a beautiful chariot. It lies drying on the banks of the river.' Observe the circumstances which coincide with the Jersey practice. 1. It is a tree growing in a moist place, full of juices, and easily bent. 2. It is cut while green. 3. It is bent into the circumference of a wheel. 4. It is left to dry in that form. You, who write French well and readily, should write a line for the Journal to reclaim the honour of our farmers. Adieu. Your's affectionately,
Th: Jefferson

Didn't he make statements renouncing them in later life, based on what he learned in the meantime?

We need to carry his burden for America and for Freedom every day of our lives. He surely belongs there on Mt. Rushmore. Freedom — of the mind. Do you know his quote from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President)? The complete statement reads as follows:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."

Funny to see a small, incomplete truncated clip of this quote first on Google hits, at Pat Robertson's website! LOL

Sanity is not free. It must be bought with a considerable price. Jefferson's one request for his tombstone is that he founded the (free) University of Virginia. No mention of his having been president, because learning about reality was his #1 ambition, and providing the same for others. He wrote to British scientist Joseph Priestley: "We wish to establish in the upper country of Virginia, and more centrally for the State, a University on a plan so broad and liberal and modern, as to be worth patronizing with the public support, and be a temptation to the youth of other States to come and drink of the cup of knowledge and fraternize with us."

The overarching question is, "how long till people evolve from animals?" So far, results are disappointing.

Gandhi was asked, "what do you think of Western Civilization"? and replied, "I think it would be a good idea."

That said, it is also true that anecdotal evidence makes it easy to get a skewed picture of a situation. It is useful to look at the big picture, and not take every anecdote as a perfect representation. The big picture includes facts like, the level of inequality of income has increased over the last 30 years, such that 2007 saw the highest level of inequality since 1928 (inequality meaning that the richest fraction of the population takes home an increased fraction of the pie. In 1960 the CEO on average took home 40 times the line worker. Now it's more like 400 times.) It's interesting to note that those two years, 1928 and 2007 were both "the year before the crash". Did I mention there was a crash recently? Did anybody notice?

It's also a fact that federal tax revenue as a percent of GDP at the time of the recent crash was the lowest it had been since 1950 (i.e., below 15%). It is also a fact that when Reagan came to office, the US was the #1 creditor nation and the #1 exporter of finished goods. When he left office, and ever since, we have been the #1 debtor nation (he tripled the debt) and the #1 importer of finished goods. 50,000 factories were lost — not jobs, FACTORIES — were lost in the decade just ending.

Sure, even in our broken state we're better off than most of the world. But is that good enough? Wouldn't you like to go back to being #1 in things that matter?

It's true that poverty is relative. During the former Depression (in the 30s) people pulled together, families grew stronger that was called the "greatest generation". The vast majority of Americans still lived "on the farm" today, people think milk comes from cartons. When I see Vietnamese families in my city living ten to an apartment, all of them working, never complaining, I know poverty is relative, and it is true that a determination to survive and get by is a powerful resource that people underestimate. The next generation of these people will do well, and move up in society, I'm confident. I've worked alongside them, and they will work you into the ground!