GRCluff's Comments

Mormon Coffee : Progression to Godhood -- Mormonism's God

Tue, 9 Dec 2008 23:28:45 +0000

2 Ne 26:16 Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together, and they both saw and heard these children; yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things; and the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them. 2 Ne 28:16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven. Historical, even scriptural, but you have to accept the BoM first. What kind of things would God forbid to be written? Who knows, but if it happened on the American continent, it probably happened in Jerusalem. To Matthew perhaps?

Mormon Coffee : Progression to Godhood -- Mormonism's God

Tue, 9 Dec 2008 06:25:07 +0000

MichaelP asked: I am still curious about marriage's role in acheiving godhood? The way to understand this concept properly, from the Mormon perspective is to ask the same question about a similar commandment that may be more acceptable. For example: I am still curious about baptism's role in acheiving salvation Take a paragraph or two to answer. Be sure to include bible references. When you are done, run find and replace to substitute marriage for baptism and salvation with exaltation, (or godhood if you prefer) then you will understand the concept properly. Take Matt 3:5 for example: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Try this change: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, it is not enough to enter into the kindgom of God alone, except a man be sealed in eternal marriage and stay faithful to his wife he cannot have eternal increase in the kingdom of God. That is the verse that Matthew was commanded to leave out of his gospel, because the world was not ready for deeper doctrine. You know, milk before meat.

Mormon Coffee : Progression to Godhood -- Mormonism's God

Tue, 9 Dec 2008 05:57:26 +0000

I would say they are still true today. I am convinced that eternal progression is the way of truth, but people do tend to look at it wrong. When you consider that the alternative is eternal stagnation, is that not the core definition of damnation? Progress ended, no more growth is a prison condition-- a state of damnation NOT heaven. When we grow in glory ourselves we have more glory to give to Him who created us. Why can none of you see that perspective?

Mormon Coffee : The Main Claim of Mormonism

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:41:46 +0000

You have good questions. Some would say living with God for eternity without continuing progress would be eternal stagnation, and that is never what God has intended. What will you do when he asks you to create an new world. Say no? He does stuff- no sitting around and scratching Himself for my God. Ok, so others can be saved too. Buddists? Muslims? Jews? How tolerant can you be. We all accepted Christ before we came to earth so it is a moot point. Those who did not followed Satan, and are NOT getting a physical body. Faith on Christ leads to repentance, so no repentance, no faith in Christ. That is what believing on Christ really means.

Mormon Coffee : The Main Claim of Mormonism

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:27:58 +0000

I took issue with the sequence of events-- 1. intelligence 2. identity and spirit form 3. create the world 4. become a man 5. become a God He became a God at 1 or 2 not 5. --"later became a God" is clearly not right. Your restatement just introduces more issues. i.e. I have heard Mormons profess a belief that Christ may be the savior of more than one world, but other Saviors? Other Gods? Not to my knowledge. Possible, perhaps but never professed doctrine.

Mormon Coffee : The Main Claim of Mormonism

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 05:43:10 +0000

I think we will agree on the definition of salvation as- "living with God for eternity". We will agree on the process of sanctification and on comprehensive forgiveness of sin through Christ. The disconnect appears when you equate one-time comprehensive forgiveness of sin with the gift of eternal life as if they were the same event. Forgiveness of sin is available to all who repent, not just evangelicals who accept Christ. It is an application of the law of mercy, made available through Christ to all who repent in this life. Those who fail to repent before death must pay the price for their own sins, but must repent nonetheless. Complete repentance via payment for sin is required before judgment can start. (You know, fire, brimstone) This state is temporary. Eternal life is given to those who meet the requirements of that gift. It is an application of the law of justice, made available through judgment, not mercy. Many who experience the one-time comprehensive forgiveness of sin may not merit eternal life. It makes a difference what you do AFTER that event, and how bad you were BEFORE that event. We do not connect the two, so Sharon's statement "Christ’s sacrificial death ultimately only rescues those who prove themselves worthy of eternal life" attempts to make a connection we don't use, so it is not correct.

Mormon Coffee : The Main Claim of Mormonism

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 01:01:00 +0000

I hate to say this Sharon, but my second gripe is more serious. You still don't have the Mormon concept of salvation right. You said: in Mormonism’s rearranged gospel Christ’s sacrificial death ultimately only rescues those who prove themselves worthy of eternal life. Mormonism's application of Christ's sacrifical death is MORE liberal that that of evangelicals in that it will apply to EVERY person ever born, even if they never heard the name of Jesus. I applies to every person who repents, and makes repentance possible for everyone. Is that a rescue? I think it is. Without that option we would be hoplessly lost on our first sin. It means Christ's death will benefit those who don't merit eternal life-- just not has much as those who repent more. That is why we still need judgement. Does your Bible speak of judgement day? Evangelicals want to apply grace to people who DON'T repent, on the arbitrary condition of lip service. Accept Christ and be saved. NOT the right condition for the application of grace. The right condition is repentence, not lip service. He saves us FROM our sins not IN our sins. The evangelical approach makes savation arbitrary and judgment day meaningless. There is our real difference.

Mormon Coffee : The Main Claim of Mormonism

Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:41:44 +0000

Sorry Sharon, but I am the detail oriented type. I can't let a couple comments here go unchallenged. You are getting much closer to our real differences though. Just a minor detail, but Christ became a God AND created the earth BEFORE he became a man. He was the God of this world before he created it (or organized it if you prefer), while still in spirit form. In that regard the statement "an eternal intelligence was organized into a man who later became a God." is not entirely right. I will offer my sincere contratulations that you finally got the idea right on Him not being a created being. It is possible in my mind that he was a God even before he took on spirit form. The big difference here is really the trinity concept. When Christ took on spirit form, He became more like God the Father. When he took on flesh, once again, He became more like God the Father. They are one in purpose not one in substance. In the beginning the plural "God" created the world. More that one being working in unison. Maybe one working under the direction or assignment of the other. There is our real difference.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sun, 30 Nov 2008 00:26:19 +0000

Were you aware that the word God in that verse (Genesis) in the original Hebrew has a plural interpretation? It literally means Gods (plural). My reference would be the first chapter of John. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Just replace Word with Jesus and it works for me.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:34:45 +0000

I knew someone was going to say that- just for the record, where is your Bible reference? IF God did create the world from existing matter, it helps explain the dinosaur bones-- Please, lets not start a discussion on evolution. We already have enough meat on the table.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:08:15 +0000

I was hoping my quote from JFS could begin to address these kind of questions: There are many things that the Lord, for a wise purpose, has not revealed to mortal man, evidently because in mortality man is unable to comprehend them. You could ask me the same question about my sons. (I have 3) It would go like this: If you and your wife did not create your sons, but merely organized a physical body for a pre-existent spirit, how are you the literal father of your children? Do you see the flaw in the question? Is it the same question found in Heb 12:9? You are ignoring the dual nature of mankind. When Christ created the world, did He create something out of nothing, or did he merely organize matter that was already here into useful form? The same concept?

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sat, 29 Nov 2008 09:28:42 +0000

This is just a layman's concept, but here's how I see it. God, being the giver of all good gifts, searches the heavens and stars for intelligence. When he finds some, he gives it spirit matter, identity and form. Lesser (or stupid) intelligences become plants and animals. I think you passed that judgement. Higher intelligences become human spirits. The highest intelligence becomes God (like Christ did) or angels to a God(who become prophets like Noah or Abraham) All, animals, plants, spirits, angels, and yes even God (in Christ Jesus) come to earth to take their spirit entity to the next level. They take on matter. Those with potential capacity to eventually become like God are given free agency, then tested to see what they do with it. Thats where we are now, in the test. If your intelligence didn't have the capacity to become like God you would have been born a monkey. Only a portion of us born as humans will still be reaching for that goal after judgement. Christ made it before he was even born, but he was the only one.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:26:36 +0000

You may be interested in part of the answer as well: Answer: First let us consider the question of intelligences. There are many things that the Lord, for a wise purpose, has not revealed to mortal man, evidently because in mortality man is unable to comprehend them. In The Progress of Man, by Joseph Fielding Smith, page eleven, the following is quoted: "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created nor made, neither indeed can be. . . . For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; and when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." [D. & C. 93:29, 33-34.]

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Sat, 29 Nov 2008 01:59:12 +0000

I will provide a reference from Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4: 126.) The question asked was: Question: "Within the Church we are taught that there was life before mortality and that there will be a life hereafter. Also that before we were spirits we were 'intelligences.' The scriptures declare that we are also 'begotten sons and daughters unto God in the spirit (D. & C. 76:24), and Paul speaking to the Greeks declared that we are the 'offspring of God' and ought not to think of the Godhead as gold, silver, or stone graven by the art of man's device. We are also told that intelligences have always existed and can neither be created nor destroyed. The question itself should tell you what Mormons believe on the subject. If the intelligence of men is not created, then how can God be a created being? Are we more eternal than He?

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:41:39 +0000

The lie that many endorse is that Christ was a created being. That is NOT what Mormonism teaches. He was organized by God from a pre-existing intelligence. Many evangelicals would reduce him (God) back to his form as intelligence only. I don't think he will go for that. Each form is progression. Each estate is an improvement on our prior condition.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:39:31 +0000

You are placing limits on God, saying he must procreate like mankind, using sexual means. Those limits have never been part of Mormon Doctrine. To make that point, you can reference the PoGP: Abr 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; Note the word used is "organized" not born. Is that not what happens on earth when we have children. The child is "organized" in the womb. You can also note that these "intelligences" were NOT created beings, but rather "organized" from intelligence to spirit form, then when born, from spirit to flesh. On resurrection we have all 3, intelligence which was NOT created, spirit which God organized in the pre-existance, and birth which organized our flesh.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:11:35 +0000

I would say angels become men, because that is what spirits do--that is the nature of life. Here is a biblical definition of angels, since you asked. It seems to fit my definition a little better than yours. Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Like I said. A spirit is the offspring of God, not yet born or still not resurrected from the dead. The ONLY difference between a spirit and an angel is the power and authority from God. They minister to mankind on assignment from God. The fact that Satan has power to mimic their appearance doesn't mean they don't exist, or that God has changed his means to minister to mankind. The only reason you don't have more experience with these things is --God restored the keys of the ministering of angels to Joseph Smith, not to biblical scholars. You really need the power of the restored priesthood to participate.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:28:36 +0000

Your question: How is it then that they are referred to as angels? (Revelation 12:7-12) Did they already evolve past manhood when they were cast out? Because evangelicals have defined angels incorrectly. It is not a post earth life role, but a pre-earth life role. The better question is, why does the Bible refer to Lucifer's followers as "his angels"? What exactly is an angel to Lucifer? Do they have wings or horns? What if I told you that the angel Gabriel was none other that the prophet Noah? An angel is a disembodied spirit on special assignment with power and authority from God. In some cases an angel has a physical body, but still, on special assignment with power and authority from God. The wings are, and always have been a symbol of the power and authority from God.

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:38:05 +0000

IntenseDebate Notification <DIV>The spirits that don't make human form are Lucifer and his angels:</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>

They arethe unclean spirits who called themselves Legion in Mark 5:8-9. Unclean because they followed Lucifer. They recognized Christ from the pre-existance.

They were cast out of heaven in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Rev 12:7-9.

</DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">

Mormon Coffee : Do We Need to Become Children of God?

Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:47:23 +0000

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Why does Paul compare and contrast the father of our spirit with the father of our flesh? Answer; because we are dual beings, and as such we have two different fathers.